8 ms·

You tell them to f off? Its like asking what happens when you're handed a bill that is clearly counterfeit

SamBam 6y ago
That doesn't answer the question, because the point of the two halves is that they are independently recording the contract. If we use a split stick to record how much money you owe me, and I simply add more marks to mine, to pretend you owe me more, it's obvious that I'm cheating. But if I simply split a brand-new stick and add marks on it, then our sticks won't match up at all. How will a court know which is the original? Presumably they had some way to sign them? After all, that's why both parties sign both contracts today. If you go change yours, I still have your signature on mine.
- pushrax 6y ago
  You could split wood more than 2 ways, then register one of the pieces. Or a system of splitting multiple pieces of wood, leaving some for registration. No idea if this is what anyone has done. Signing makes sense.
  - Spivak 6y ago
    But if you have a system where you can register the stick then why do you need the stick? Just register the contract with this, apparently trusted, 3rd party.
    - kgwgk 6y ago
      The third party and the registered stick slice aren't required to add marks to the outstanding sticks.
  - AngryData 6y ago
    Splitting more tallies from one stick was done on certain occasions, especially if intentional fraud was a concern.
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  I dont understand. Its straight up told that the party giving the money had the longer stick, meaning the party with most to lose had to match the longer stick
  - SamBam 6y ago
    If I give you $100, and we mark it on a stick, and then split it and give me the longer one, and then I throw away my half and split a new one that says you owe me $200, how do we resolve it when the halves come together and don't match? I say you made a new half-stick, and you say I did. Both parties in a contract can have an incentive to lie.
    - Spivak 6y ago
      You have to give both parties incentive to produce the original stick. So if they don’t match then you both lose. I don’t think all contracts have an obvious both losing state though.
    - DistressedDrone 6y ago
      I think in this case one of the recipients has a monopoly on violence and doesn't care how much money you think they owe you.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > I don't understand Think about two situations: Firstly, if I lend you money, we split sticks, then I throw away my stick and get a new stick that says I lent you more money. Secondly, if you lend me money, we split sticks, then I throw away my stick and get a new stick that says you lent me less money. In both cases you're claiming my stick is clearly counterfeit because it doesn't match yours and I'm (falsely, but nobody knows that except the other party) claiming your stick is clearly counterfeit because it doesn't match mine. What happens next? We're no better off than if we only had a verbal record and were disagreeing. So what is the point in the sticks? Understand?
- a_t48 6y ago
  Let's say we cut notches perpedicular to where the split will be, and then split through the notches. If you cut more notches in your side of the wood, it will be obvious that you've done so - the two sides will fit together perfectly in shape and in grain, but one side will have extra notches. It's not like I could have filled in the notches on my piece.
  - SamBam 6y ago
    Right. That's what I said in my middle paragraph. But if I simply throw away my half and make a new half, a court will have no way of knowing which was the original. (Unless each half was signed by both parties.)
    - pwg 6y ago
      > But if I simply throw away my half and make a new half Your new half would not match together in the "split" part of the stick, so one could tell that /someone/ made a new half, but not necessarily which party was the forger.
      - SamBam 6y ago
        Right. As I've been saying from the start of the thread.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
chrisseaton 6y ago
> Its like asking what happens when you're handed a bill that is clearly counterfeit Presumably they would say that your stick is the one that is clearly counterfeit. So how do you resolve that?

That doesn't answer the question, because the point of the two halves is that they are independently recording the contract. If we use a split stick to record how much money you owe me, and I simply add more marks to mine, to pretend you owe me more, it's obvious that I'm cheating. But if I simply split a brand-new stick and add marks on it, then our sticks won't match up at all. How will a court know which is the original? Presumably they had some way to sign them? After all, that's why both parties sign both contracts today. If you go change yours, I still have your signature on mine.

pushrax 6y ago
You could split wood more than 2 ways, then register one of the pieces. Or a system of splitting multiple pieces of wood, leaving some for registration. No idea if this is what anyone has done. Signing makes sense.
- Spivak 6y ago
  But if you have a system where you can register the stick then why do you need the stick? Just register the contract with this, apparently trusted, 3rd party.
  - kgwgk 6y ago
    The third party and the registered stick slice aren't required to add marks to the outstanding sticks.
- AngryData 6y ago
  Splitting more tallies from one stick was done on certain occasions, especially if intentional fraud was a concern.
NikolaeVarius 6y ago
I dont understand. Its straight up told that the party giving the money had the longer stick, meaning the party with most to lose had to match the longer stick
- SamBam 6y ago
  If I give you $100, and we mark it on a stick, and then split it and give me the longer one, and then I throw away my half and split a new one that says you owe me $200, how do we resolve it when the halves come together and don't match? I say you made a new half-stick, and you say I did. Both parties in a contract can have an incentive to lie.
  - Spivak 6y ago
    You have to give both parties incentive to produce the original stick. So if they don’t match then you both lose. I don’t think all contracts have an obvious both losing state though.
  - DistressedDrone 6y ago
    I think in this case one of the recipients has a monopoly on violence and doesn't care how much money you think they owe you.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > I don't understand Think about two situations: Firstly, if I lend you money, we split sticks, then I throw away my stick and get a new stick that says I lent you more money. Secondly, if you lend me money, we split sticks, then I throw away my stick and get a new stick that says you lent me less money. In both cases you're claiming my stick is clearly counterfeit because it doesn't match yours and I'm (falsely, but nobody knows that except the other party) claiming your stick is clearly counterfeit because it doesn't match mine. What happens next? We're no better off than if we only had a verbal record and were disagreeing. So what is the point in the sticks? Understand?
a_t48 6y ago
Let's say we cut notches perpedicular to where the split will be, and then split through the notches. If you cut more notches in your side of the wood, it will be obvious that you've done so - the two sides will fit together perfectly in shape and in grain, but one side will have extra notches. It's not like I could have filled in the notches on my piece.
- SamBam 6y ago
  Right. That's what I said in my middle paragraph. But if I simply throw away my half and make a new half, a court will have no way of knowing which was the original. (Unless each half was signed by both parties.)
  - pwg 6y ago
    > But if I simply throw away my half and make a new half Your new half would not match together in the "split" part of the stick, so one could tell that /someone/ made a new half, but not necessarily which party was the forger.
    - SamBam 6y ago
      Right. As I've been saying from the start of the thread.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

chrisseaton 6y ago

> Its like asking what happens when you're handed a bill that is clearly counterfeit Presumably they would say that your stick is the one that is clearly counterfeit. So how do you resolve that?