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Glad to see that Mozilla refuses to tolerate neurodiversity. Socially awkward people deserve to be permanently ostracized from society, am I right? I'm proud

Glad to see that Mozilla refuses to tolerate neurodiversity. Socially awkward people deserve to be permanently ostracized from society, am I right? I'm proud to use a web browser developed by people who offer no quarter to autists, schizos, and the rest of them loonies; if they wanted inclusion, they should just stop being mentally unwell - it's all in their heads, after all! Thank you, Mitchell Baker, very cool. (/s, because on the Internet nobody knows you're a dog^W^Wbeing sarcastic) ...like, I ain't saying I like the guy or anything - he definitely seems like someone I wouldn't enjoy interacting with day-to-day - but I'm skeptical of the idea that having heterodox opinions or being a bit of a stubborn ass should be a fireable offense. If he was outright sexually assaulting people, or abusing a position of power for sex, or something like that, then sure, villainize the guy (and - better yet - pursue criminal charges), but as it stands, it seems like his worst actual offense was being a stereotypical socially awkward nerd. But hey, if Mozilla doesn't want to associate with the FSF for whatever reason, then that's their perogative. I'm sure they'll stop using GNU and its components company-wide any day now.

orra 6y ago
This is ableist nonsense. First, nobody is ostracizing Stallman for being socially awkward. He is being ostracized for sexual harassment. Second, neurodiversity and social awkwardness don't excuse you being an asshole, from being a bully, or from being a danger. I think most people, whether neurodiverse or not, understand that. Finally, does he have an autism diagnosis? Just like with the recent tragic Atlanta shooting, we as a society have to stop excusing monsters by inventing autism diagnoses for them. The responsible thing to do, if Stallman were autistic, would be to seek treatment for autism. Entirely separately, like every person, he needs to learn to not sexually harass women.
- tubbyjr 6y ago
  Unbelievable... so autism is now a treatable disease? Is LGBTQ++ also treatable according to you? Your comment is bigotted nonesense across the whole gamut.
  - orra 6y ago
    > autism is now a treatable disease? I didn't say cure. But there are therapies for autism: therapy, for a start. > Is LGBTQ++ also treatable according to you? That's a crass straw man. Being LGBT+ is not a disorder. Indeed, being trans was recently removed as a disorder from DSM.
    - geofft 6y ago
      Perhaps a better way of putting this is that while autism doesn't need a "cure," being an asshole is absolutely a thing that - if it is indeed caused by a medical condition - a medical professional can help with. (And if it is not caused by a medical condition, then it is simply a character flaw, and should be judged like a willful character flaw and not like a medical condition.) There are plenty of autistic people who are not assholes and are lovely people. Many of them say they go out of their way to have their rational brain compensate for the level of emotional processing that other people expect out of them, that they specifically worry about being perceived as rude. The least a leader of an activism organization can do (assuming he does in fact care about the activism) is to figure out when he's alienating people and figure out how to stop, or to step down and let someone else take the leadership role.
      - yellowapple 6y ago
        > The least a leader of an activism organization can do (assuming he does in fact care about the activism) is to figure out when he's alienating people and figure out how to stop, or to step down and let someone else take the leadership role. Which he did, and pretty quickly at that. And then the FSF evidently wanted him to return, hence his reappointment to the Board of Directors.
      - MauranKilom 6y ago
        > figure out when he's alienating people and figure out how to stop I read through the appendix in the open letter and find no discussion of this. If he did stop, would you agree that this entire letter was baseless?
- crazypython 6y ago
  Sexual harassment? The claim that he wrote "knight of hot ladies" was false: it was a vandal. He's never groped or raped anyone. The worst true accusation is that he kept a mattress at the office which he used to sleep on.
- captaincurrie 6y ago
  Sexual Harassment can mean anything to these usurpers. What it probably means is a big, fat, ugly nerd tried his hand at flirting. Didn't go so well. A little bit of awkwardness for both parties ensured. End of story. Long Live RS!
  - orra 6y ago
    > Sexual Harassment can mean anything to these usurpers. This is a complete strawman. Sexual harassment is well defined. It would be unwanted and, especially, persistent sexual attention.
    - shock 6y ago
      > Sexual harassment is well defined. It would be unwanted and, especially, persistent sexual attention. Don't go to latin america or you'd be in for a surprise. Or Japan.
      - anthk 6y ago
        In Spain on weekends it can be in both ways and with different sexual orientations.
    - yellowapple 6y ago
      By definition, literally any rejection of an intimate advance would make that advance "unwanted". Should we as a society interpret this to mean that the only people allowed to flirt with other people are ones who are successful 100% of the time? Now, obviously if he persisted after rejection then that changes things, but it doesn't seem like that's been alleged AFAICT.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  > He is being ostracized for sexual harassment. Being a bit of a weirdo - which is really the only allegation so far that has had any real merit, to my knowledge - is not sexual harassment. Claiming otherwise does a massive disservice both to neuroatypical people and to actual victims of sexual harassment. > Finally, does he have an autism diagnosis? Does he need one? This is the US we're talking about; considering how frequently and harshly even the slightest mental irregularity gets ostracized in this country - as exemplified in this very thread - I wouldn't blame him for being undiagnosed, whether due to not knowing there's something different about himself in the first place or due to actively wanting to avoid the stigma such a diagnosis would carry. > The responsible thing to do, if Stallman were autistic, would be to seek treatment for autism. Right, I'm sure there's some pill he can take, right? Oooh, or maybe hypnotherapy! Or lobotomies! Or electroshock therapy! Imagine calling me ableist in the same breath used to insist that neuroatypical people should submit themselves to some sort of conversion therapy if they want to be accepted in society.
  - orra 6y ago
    > Being a bit of a weirdo - which is really the only allegation so far that has had any real merit, to my knowledge - is not sexual harassment. Well, sure: if you ignore all the evidence, then put up a straw man, you'll never be able to criticise his harassment. Again, RMS is being ostracized for sexual harassment, not for being a weirdo.
    - yellowapple 6y ago
      > if you ignore all the evidence What evidence? Pretty much all of it, last I checked, has fallen into any of three categories: 1. Debunked (the "protector of hot ladies" thing, claiming Epstein's victims to have been "entirely willing") 2. Based on some gross exaggeration or misrepresentation (the mattress in his office at MIT, EDIT: and the "pleasure cards") 3. Hearsay
jfim 6y ago
> I'm skeptical of the idea that having heterodox opinions or being a bit of a stubborn ass should be a fireable offense It's more of an issue when someone is part of the leadership for a group though, as they are seen as representing the whole group.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  Well maybe that mentality is the actual problem, rather than the targets thereof. It's quite possible to separate personal beliefs from professional interactions, and unless there's tangible evidence that said separation ain't happening, then maybe we could stand to assume innocence in the absense of evidence of guilt? Like, should we consider the emtire organization developing the Brave web browser to be implicitly homophobic because its founder and CEO once donated to an anti-gay-marriage campaign? Should we have considered Mozilla itself to have been at one point implicitly homophobic in its brief appointment of that same person as CEO? Was Netscape homophobic for that reason? Or do you think that maybe people can have views that ain't representative of their employers?

orra 6y ago

This is ableist nonsense. First, nobody is ostracizing Stallman for being socially awkward. He is being ostracized for sexual harassment. Second, neurodiversity and social awkwardness don't excuse you being an asshole, from being a bully, or from being a danger. I think most people, whether neurodiverse or not, understand that. Finally, does he have an autism diagnosis? Just like with the recent tragic Atlanta shooting, we as a society have to stop excusing monsters by inventing autism diagnoses for them. The responsible thing to do, if Stallman were autistic, would be to seek treatment for autism. Entirely separately, like every person, he needs to learn to not sexually harass women.

tubbyjr 6y ago
Unbelievable... so autism is now a treatable disease? Is LGBTQ++ also treatable according to you? Your comment is bigotted nonesense across the whole gamut.
- orra 6y ago
  > autism is now a treatable disease? I didn't say cure. But there are therapies for autism: therapy, for a start. > Is LGBTQ++ also treatable according to you? That's a crass straw man. Being LGBT+ is not a disorder. Indeed, being trans was recently removed as a disorder from DSM.
  - geofft 6y ago
    Perhaps a better way of putting this is that while autism doesn't need a "cure," being an asshole is absolutely a thing that - if it is indeed caused by a medical condition - a medical professional can help with. (And if it is not caused by a medical condition, then it is simply a character flaw, and should be judged like a willful character flaw and not like a medical condition.) There are plenty of autistic people who are not assholes and are lovely people. Many of them say they go out of their way to have their rational brain compensate for the level of emotional processing that other people expect out of them, that they specifically worry about being perceived as rude. The least a leader of an activism organization can do (assuming he does in fact care about the activism) is to figure out when he's alienating people and figure out how to stop, or to step down and let someone else take the leadership role.
    - yellowapple 6y ago
      > The least a leader of an activism organization can do (assuming he does in fact care about the activism) is to figure out when he's alienating people and figure out how to stop, or to step down and let someone else take the leadership role. Which he did, and pretty quickly at that. And then the FSF evidently wanted him to return, hence his reappointment to the Board of Directors.
    - MauranKilom 6y ago
      > figure out when he's alienating people and figure out how to stop I read through the appendix in the open letter and find no discussion of this. If he did stop, would you agree that this entire letter was baseless?
crazypython 6y ago
Sexual harassment? The claim that he wrote "knight of hot ladies" was false: it was a vandal. He's never groped or raped anyone. The worst true accusation is that he kept a mattress at the office which he used to sleep on.
captaincurrie 6y ago
Sexual Harassment can mean anything to these usurpers. What it probably means is a big, fat, ugly nerd tried his hand at flirting. Didn't go so well. A little bit of awkwardness for both parties ensured. End of story. Long Live RS!
- orra 6y ago
  > Sexual Harassment can mean anything to these usurpers. This is a complete strawman. Sexual harassment is well defined. It would be unwanted and, especially, persistent sexual attention.
  - shock 6y ago
    > Sexual harassment is well defined. It would be unwanted and, especially, persistent sexual attention. Don't go to latin america or you'd be in for a surprise. Or Japan.
    - anthk 6y ago
      In Spain on weekends it can be in both ways and with different sexual orientations.
  - yellowapple 6y ago
    By definition, literally any rejection of an intimate advance would make that advance "unwanted". Should we as a society interpret this to mean that the only people allowed to flirt with other people are ones who are successful 100% of the time? Now, obviously if he persisted after rejection then that changes things, but it doesn't seem like that's been alleged AFAICT.
yellowapple 6y ago
> He is being ostracized for sexual harassment. Being a bit of a weirdo - which is really the only allegation so far that has had any real merit, to my knowledge - is not sexual harassment. Claiming otherwise does a massive disservice both to neuroatypical people and to actual victims of sexual harassment. > Finally, does he have an autism diagnosis? Does he need one? This is the US we're talking about; considering how frequently and harshly even the slightest mental irregularity gets ostracized in this country - as exemplified in this very thread - I wouldn't blame him for being undiagnosed, whether due to not knowing there's something different about himself in the first place or due to actively wanting to avoid the stigma such a diagnosis would carry. > The responsible thing to do, if Stallman were autistic, would be to seek treatment for autism. Right, I'm sure there's some pill he can take, right? Oooh, or maybe hypnotherapy! Or lobotomies! Or electroshock therapy! Imagine calling me ableist in the same breath used to insist that neuroatypical people should submit themselves to some sort of conversion therapy if they want to be accepted in society.
- orra 6y ago
  > Being a bit of a weirdo - which is really the only allegation so far that has had any real merit, to my knowledge - is not sexual harassment. Well, sure: if you ignore all the evidence, then put up a straw man, you'll never be able to criticise his harassment. Again, RMS is being ostracized for sexual harassment, not for being a weirdo.
  - yellowapple 6y ago
    > if you ignore all the evidence What evidence? Pretty much all of it, last I checked, has fallen into any of three categories: 1. Debunked (the "protector of hot ladies" thing, claiming Epstein's victims to have been "entirely willing") 2. Based on some gross exaggeration or misrepresentation (the mattress in his office at MIT, EDIT: and the "pleasure cards") 3. Hearsay

jfim 6y ago

> I'm skeptical of the idea that having heterodox opinions or being a bit of a stubborn ass should be a fireable offense It's more of an issue when someone is part of the leadership for a group though, as they are seen as representing the whole group.

yellowapple 6y ago
Well maybe that mentality is the actual problem, rather than the targets thereof. It's quite possible to separate personal beliefs from professional interactions, and unless there's tangible evidence that said separation ain't happening, then maybe we could stand to assume innocence in the absense of evidence of guilt? Like, should we consider the emtire organization developing the Brave web browser to be implicitly homophobic because its founder and CEO once donated to an anti-gay-marriage campaign? Should we have considered Mozilla itself to have been at one point implicitly homophobic in its brief appointment of that same person as CEO? Was Netscape homophobic for that reason? Or do you think that maybe people can have views that ain't representative of their employers?