4 ms·

Comments in this thread represent what’s wrong with the industry. The article references sexual harassment, the commenters care about market share. Did you kn

Comments in this thread represent what’s wrong with the industry. The article references sexual harassment, the commenters care about market share. Did you know it’s important to hold people accountable more, the more power they have? It’s one thing if you disagree, but making it about “winners” and “losers” and not about victims is how we ended up creating toxic workplaces.

datavirtue 6y ago
There aren't any threads in this post yet. LOL
nyolfen 6y ago
the sexual harassment was asking women at conferences on dates
- Ygg2 6y ago
  He's obviously an animal, devoid of all reason./sarcasm
- orra 6y ago
  You're downplaying it entirely. He has a track record of handing out sexualized 'pleasure cards' at professional conferences. Women at MIT were warned away from him, told to keep plants to ward him off. And one of the most troubling things he has done is psychological manipulation. Many jurisdictions rightly recognise as domestic abuse. In particular, he told one woman he would kill himself if she didn't date him. Depressed people should seek treatment. Being depressed doesn't excuse manipulation.
  - loveistheanswer 6y ago
    >In particular, he told one woman he would kill himself if she didn't date him. >Depressed people should seek treatment. Being depressed doesn't excuse manipulation. I've been on the receiving end of that same situation; and yet, I don't think inciting an internet hate mob to banish that person from their life's work indefinitely is the proper "treatment" I'd recommend to give that person.
    - orra 6y ago
      Again, mental health doesn't excuse domestic abuse.
      - yellowapple 6y ago
        This is not domestic abuse.
      - loveistheanswer 6y ago
        What makes you think I said it did?
  - nwah1 6y ago
    Manipulating? The word you are looking for is begging. Get a grip
  - vlsmaker 6y ago
    For heavens sake, "business or pleasure?" was the question you were asked at the border before getting a stamp in your passport once upon a time. So a business card turned into a pleasure card, which has nothing to do with sex at all, except for people who want to see things that aren't there. It's one of RMS's quaint re-namings, and people turn it into something sinister. > Women at MIT were warned away from him, told to keep plants to ward him off. That may have been a joke or they didn't want to listen to his preaching. Anecdotal hearsay anyway. > he told one woman he would kill himself if she didn't date him. How did he say that? Most likely as a joke, which millions of people have done. But hey, let's focus on Stallman who wasn't even involved with Epstein himself instead of the people that Epstein collected dossiers about. Those would be the interesting ones, but perhaps some corporate or political interests don't allow it.
    - throwawaysea 6y ago
      Thank you for the explanation of the "business or pleasure" connection. That's how I read it as well but with everyone pulling out their torches and scythes for a witch hunt, I was starting to second guess my own opinion and perception of all this. I'm not sure if there's a word for that phenomenon...
      - crtasm 6y ago
        For reference here's one of the cards (I don't know if he made other versions): https://fossforce.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/RMSleisure.jpg https://fossforce.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/RMSleisure....
    - orra 6y ago
      You downplay the sexual harassment of handing out these 'pleasure cards'. But ultimately, real women are upset by it. The unprofessional behavior discourages women from being in tech. Just because you wouldn't mind receiving such a card, doesn't mean it's not harassment. I mean, do you understand (a) the nature of consent, and (b) professional workplace environments?
      - 6y ago
restingrobot 6y ago
>The article references sexual harassment, the commenters care about market share. Alleged sexual harassment. Granted I don't know the whole story, but it doesn't seem like there has been anything more than accusations. I don't think its right to fire someone based on heresay. Once he is proven to have crossed the lines, then I'm all for holding him accountable. Until then, I think people should keep the pitchfork in the shed. Also I'm not defending his commentary, but people are entitled to their own opinions.
Ygg2 6y ago
> The article references sexual harassment, the commenters care about market share. The sexual harassment is hearsay, and one making accusations (Mozilla) is so deep in bed with Google, if they sneezed Alphabet would come out. The market share is people way if saying, really, that's what you want to focus on?
orra 6y ago
> Comments in this thread represent what’s wrong with the industry. It's incredibly troubling. It shows that a hell of a lot of men will excuse incredibly shitty behaviour, because they think 'they're next'. Not unless they're also being incredibly shitty. Nobody's getting 'cancelled' for bad social skills. I am pleasantly surprised by the number of people speaking out against harassment these days. The open letter has a lot of signatories, many prominent figures. Sadly, of course, the open letter is necessary.
- MauranKilom 6y ago
  > Nobody's getting 'cancelled' for bad social skills. People have been cancelled for less. Here's a guy facing a closed door tribunal for jokingly saying in a keynote that someone was wrong on technical points: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24926214 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24926214 Here is someone getting character-assassinated because... We don't know why. This guy made others uncomfortable, or so the organizers said. Other examples of similar stories in there too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12422420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12422420 The discussion of whether what RMS has done in the past (and still does? I don't know? Did he repent?) crosses a line in the sand that you (and others) see between bad social skills and actual harassment needs more nuance than "people don't get cancelled for the wrong reasons".

datavirtue 6y ago

There aren't any threads in this post yet. LOL

nyolfen 6y ago

the sexual harassment was asking women at conferences on dates

Ygg2 6y ago
He's obviously an animal, devoid of all reason./sarcasm
orra 6y ago
You're downplaying it entirely. He has a track record of handing out sexualized 'pleasure cards' at professional conferences. Women at MIT were warned away from him, told to keep plants to ward him off. And one of the most troubling things he has done is psychological manipulation. Many jurisdictions rightly recognise as domestic abuse. In particular, he told one woman he would kill himself if she didn't date him. Depressed people should seek treatment. Being depressed doesn't excuse manipulation.
- loveistheanswer 6y ago
  >In particular, he told one woman he would kill himself if she didn't date him. >Depressed people should seek treatment. Being depressed doesn't excuse manipulation. I've been on the receiving end of that same situation; and yet, I don't think inciting an internet hate mob to banish that person from their life's work indefinitely is the proper "treatment" I'd recommend to give that person.
  - orra 6y ago
    Again, mental health doesn't excuse domestic abuse.
    - yellowapple 6y ago
      This is not domestic abuse.
    - loveistheanswer 6y ago
      What makes you think I said it did?
- nwah1 6y ago
  Manipulating? The word you are looking for is begging. Get a grip
- vlsmaker 6y ago
  For heavens sake, "business or pleasure?" was the question you were asked at the border before getting a stamp in your passport once upon a time. So a business card turned into a pleasure card, which has nothing to do with sex at all, except for people who want to see things that aren't there. It's one of RMS's quaint re-namings, and people turn it into something sinister. > Women at MIT were warned away from him, told to keep plants to ward him off. That may have been a joke or they didn't want to listen to his preaching. Anecdotal hearsay anyway. > he told one woman he would kill himself if she didn't date him. How did he say that? Most likely as a joke, which millions of people have done. But hey, let's focus on Stallman who wasn't even involved with Epstein himself instead of the people that Epstein collected dossiers about. Those would be the interesting ones, but perhaps some corporate or political interests don't allow it.
  - throwawaysea 6y ago
    Thank you for the explanation of the "business or pleasure" connection. That's how I read it as well but with everyone pulling out their torches and scythes for a witch hunt, I was starting to second guess my own opinion and perception of all this. I'm not sure if there's a word for that phenomenon...
    - crtasm 6y ago
      For reference here's one of the cards (I don't know if he made other versions): https://fossforce.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/RMSleisure.jpg https://fossforce.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/RMSleisure....
  - orra 6y ago
    You downplay the sexual harassment of handing out these 'pleasure cards'. But ultimately, real women are upset by it. The unprofessional behavior discourages women from being in tech. Just because you wouldn't mind receiving such a card, doesn't mean it's not harassment. I mean, do you understand (a) the nature of consent, and (b) professional workplace environments?
    - 6y ago

restingrobot 6y ago

>The article references sexual harassment, the commenters care about market share. Alleged sexual harassment. Granted I don't know the whole story, but it doesn't seem like there has been anything more than accusations. I don't think its right to fire someone based on heresay. Once he is proven to have crossed the lines, then I'm all for holding him accountable. Until then, I think people should keep the pitchfork in the shed. Also I'm not defending his commentary, but people are entitled to their own opinions.

Ygg2 6y ago

> The article references sexual harassment, the commenters care about market share. The sexual harassment is hearsay, and one making accusations (Mozilla) is so deep in bed with Google, if they sneezed Alphabet would come out. The market share is people way if saying, really, that's what you want to focus on?

orra 6y ago

> Comments in this thread represent what’s wrong with the industry. It's incredibly troubling. It shows that a hell of a lot of men will excuse incredibly shitty behaviour, because they think 'they're next'. Not unless they're also being incredibly shitty. Nobody's getting 'cancelled' for bad social skills. I am pleasantly surprised by the number of people speaking out against harassment these days. The open letter has a lot of signatories, many prominent figures. Sadly, of course, the open letter is necessary.

MauranKilom 6y ago
> Nobody's getting 'cancelled' for bad social skills. People have been cancelled for less. Here's a guy facing a closed door tribunal for jokingly saying in a keynote that someone was wrong on technical points: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24926214 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24926214 Here is someone getting character-assassinated because... We don't know why. This guy made others uncomfortable, or so the organizers said. Other examples of similar stories in there too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12422420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12422420 The discussion of whether what RMS has done in the past (and still does? I don't know? Did he repent?) crosses a line in the sand that you (and others) see between bad social skills and actual harassment needs more nuance than "people don't get cancelled for the wrong reasons".