4 ms·

This could be great. Personal anecdote time, when I was using ESP32 there were some things it couldn't handle due to a very unconfigurable WiFi interface -- cap

This could be great. Personal anecdote time, when I was using ESP32 there were some things it couldn't handle due to a very unconfigurable WiFi interface -- captive portal advertisement via DHCP specifically. (Before people get their knickers in a twist, it was connecting to a box that had no internet access, so there was no hostage situation there.) It turns out there are basically no open source or even American options that replace that chip. A lack of competition leads to a stymied market.

outworlder 6y ago
I've just learned that the ESP32 is manufactured on a TSMC 40mm process. That's essentially caveman tech. All those foundries based on old processes should be churning out at least equivalent (if not more capable) chips. Heck, forget ESP32, is there a ESP8266 equivalent that's entirely made in the USA? Would love to use that instead - for many reasons.
- ironmagma 6y ago
  Hard for me to read the level of hyperbole here, but does that mean it’s something that could conceivably be manufactured in a home?
  - mjevans 6y ago
    40nM is about 13 years old at this point, and has been replaced superseded several times. https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/40_nm_lithography_process https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/40_nm_lithography_process Probably the only reason that line is still running would be validated long term stability products, or niche hardware designed with special application compatibility (E.G. radhard, higher end mil / aerospace concerns, maybe automotive). Semiconductor tooling is rather expensive and I imagine that updating this to a more modern line would require overhauling and re-balancing many systems. It might help someone not familiar with the industry to imagine each technology node as an entirely new model of car.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - samus 6y ago
    There are some projects where people try to etch silicon in their garage, but the node they are targetting is from last century. Anything newer and you need toxic and corrosive chemicals, and increasingly exotic equipment. The yield isn't great either.
- baybal2 6y ago
  > I've just learned that the ESP32 is manufactured on a TSMC 40mm process. That's essentially caveman tech. But it's cheap, and MOQs are still achievable for mortals. This is why. There are way more reasons older litho processes persist beyond just them still making tons of money. 40nm for a microcontroller is rather impressive, given that the most are made with anything up to 180nm. It takes more effort to design a chip with scaling down of geometries, lead times, and test samples are getting longer to get. Mask sets get more expensive. Less fabs are available to produce the chip. Some devices become unavailable at lower geometries. And so on, and on...
genmud 6y ago
There are tons of options that aren't ESP32s. Many just aren't in the package that you are used to with a ESP32. Nordic, NXP, SiLabs and Microchip all have pretty comparable offerings at a similar price point for bare ICs (and if you are doing anything outside prototyping/small volume, you shouldn't be buying modules IMHO anyways). If you are talking about ESP32 modules, there are still options but they are typically a bit more expensive, like $1-2 more last time I checked. However, there are ARM based wifi/bt modules that you can get as cheap as $1.50-$2.00 for an FCC certified one. Check out Fanstel BlueNor [1] as an example. The huge advantage being you get to use ARM tools instead of the Xtensa stuff, which depending on your workflows can be a definite plus (though I believe they recently added xtensa support in LLVM, so that might be a bit of a moot point). They are definitely going to be difficult to compete with on the new ESP32-C3 line price-wise once they ramp it up though. At the end of the day though the ESP offerings have a bit of tradeoffs when you look at battery life and performance compared to other offerings. I believe they are working or may have fixed the power usage/sleep problems though on the C3s. When it is all said and done though, I think the ESP32-C3 is going to probably take over the sub $1-2 IOT space, at the end of the day batteries are cheap and if you are designing your product to be plugged in... who cares. What personally burns me with Espressif is they charge so much for their ICs. Like sometimes the modules are cheaper than the bare chips, even at 1k quantity, which is kinda irritating when you are space constrained. [1] https://www.fanstel.com/bluenor-summaries https://www.fanstel.com/bluenor-summaries

outworlder 6y ago

I've just learned that the ESP32 is manufactured on a TSMC 40mm process. That's essentially caveman tech. All those foundries based on old processes should be churning out at least equivalent (if not more capable) chips. Heck, forget ESP32, is there a ESP8266 equivalent that's entirely made in the USA? Would love to use that instead - for many reasons.

ironmagma 6y ago
Hard for me to read the level of hyperbole here, but does that mean it’s something that could conceivably be manufactured in a home?
- mjevans 6y ago
  40nM is about 13 years old at this point, and has been replaced superseded several times. https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/40_nm_lithography_process https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/40_nm_lithography_process Probably the only reason that line is still running would be validated long term stability products, or niche hardware designed with special application compatibility (E.G. radhard, higher end mil / aerospace concerns, maybe automotive). Semiconductor tooling is rather expensive and I imagine that updating this to a more modern line would require overhauling and re-balancing many systems. It might help someone not familiar with the industry to imagine each technology node as an entirely new model of car.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- samus 6y ago
  There are some projects where people try to etch silicon in their garage, but the node they are targetting is from last century. Anything newer and you need toxic and corrosive chemicals, and increasingly exotic equipment. The yield isn't great either.
baybal2 6y ago
> I've just learned that the ESP32 is manufactured on a TSMC 40mm process. That's essentially caveman tech. But it's cheap, and MOQs are still achievable for mortals. This is why. There are way more reasons older litho processes persist beyond just them still making tons of money. 40nm for a microcontroller is rather impressive, given that the most are made with anything up to 180nm. It takes more effort to design a chip with scaling down of geometries, lead times, and test samples are getting longer to get. Mask sets get more expensive. Less fabs are available to produce the chip. Some devices become unavailable at lower geometries. And so on, and on...

genmud 6y ago

There are tons of options that aren't ESP32s. Many just aren't in the package that you are used to with a ESP32. Nordic, NXP, SiLabs and Microchip all have pretty comparable offerings at a similar price point for bare ICs (and if you are doing anything outside prototyping/small volume, you shouldn't be buying modules IMHO anyways). If you are talking about ESP32 modules, there are still options but they are typically a bit more expensive, like $1-2 more last time I checked. However, there are ARM based wifi/bt modules that you can get as cheap as $1.50-$2.00 for an FCC certified one. Check out Fanstel BlueNor [1] as an example. The huge advantage being you get to use ARM tools instead of the Xtensa stuff, which depending on your workflows can be a definite plus (though I believe they recently added xtensa support in LLVM, so that might be a bit of a moot point). They are definitely going to be difficult to compete with on the new ESP32-C3 line price-wise once they ramp it up though. At the end of the day though the ESP offerings have a bit of tradeoffs when you look at battery life and performance compared to other offerings. I believe they are working or may have fixed the power usage/sleep problems though on the C3s. When it is all said and done though, I think the ESP32-C3 is going to probably take over the sub $1-2 IOT space, at the end of the day batteries are cheap and if you are designing your product to be plugged in... who cares. What personally burns me with Espressif is they charge so much for their ICs. Like sometimes the modules are cheaper than the bare chips, even at 1k quantity, which is kinda irritating when you are space constrained. [1] https://www.fanstel.com/bluenor-summaries https://www.fanstel.com/bluenor-summaries