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It is important. They removed a lot of champions with complicated mechanics that could have been much harder for the AI to play against.

wnevets 6y ago
As someone who has played HoN & DoTA2 for over a decade I'm telling you it isn't important when evaluating the ability of an AI to actually play the game. Drafting can be massive when deciding the outcome of games even at the lower skill levels. Opening up the entire hero pool just means you're largely evaluating the ability to draft in the current patch more than actual playing ability.
- ctchocula 6y ago
  IIRC, amongst banned heroes were key splitpush heroes such as Nature's Prophet, Tinker and Phantom Lancer, which are a known counter to the early-game advantage, mid-game push strategy that the OpenAI 5 executed. Early-game laning and mid-game teamfight combination are micro-intensive, and consequently the biggest advantage the OpenAI 5 had over OG. Against the simple AI that comes built-in to Dota 2, you can be behind by a ton and exploit splitpushing against the AI, because doing any structural damage against buildings will force the AI (who are gathered up for a push) back, and you will still win if you drag the game sufficiently into the lategame. Deciding whether or not to continue to push and which heroes to send back to defend is one of the hardest strategic decisions to make in the game, even for humans. The finals of one of the TIs, NaVi vs. Alliance, was lost on getting such a decision wrong. Eliminating some key splitpush heroes minimized the probability that OpenAI 5 would have been forced into having to make such a decision. It would not surprise me if the OpenAI 5 would have lost against OG had the entire heropool been available, had the series been long enough or had the prizepool been big enough for OG to take the game seriously enough to warrant picking a splitpushing strategy (which is considered cowardly in some circles).
  - wnevets 6y ago
    > IIRC, amongst banned heroes were key splitpush heroes such as Nature's Prophet and Tinker, which are a known counter to the early-game advantage, mid-game push strategy that the OpenAI 5 executed. Tinker is an example of a hero that took (and still takes) a lot of gold to useful. If you're drafting tinker to stop early game push strats you're going to have a bad time. If anything Tinker is actually an example of an hero that the AI would probably excel at, the same goes for any micro dependent hero. In general including heroes that excel with great mechanics is a poor way to evaluate how well the AI actually plays the game. No one doubts an AI can send inputs faster than humans.
- bllguo 6y ago
  okay? so what's the rebuttal if I, someone who has also played dota for over a decade, say it _is_ important? the game is balanced around the entire roster. in a pool of 17 heroes, the answers to the locally optimal strategy likely don't even exist within said subset. drafting proper compositions, adapting to the opponent's heroes, and dynamically changing your gameplan during the match are all part of actual playing ability.
  - wnevets 6y ago
    > okay? so what's the rebuttal if I, someone who has also played dota for over a decade, say it _is_ important? No, the rebuttal is how can someone who has never played the game before claim x,y,z is important or not?
    - TulliusCicero 6y ago
      It doesn't take a Dota expert to realize that removing most of the heroes is going to have a huge impact on strategy.
      - wnevets 6y ago
        It just doesn't when you're evaluating how well an AI actually plays the game. You're missing the forest for the trees by focusing on the hero pool size rather than the AI's map movements, managing power spikes, division of resources, etc

wnevets 6y ago

As someone who has played HoN & DoTA2 for over a decade I'm telling you it isn't important when evaluating the ability of an AI to actually play the game. Drafting can be massive when deciding the outcome of games even at the lower skill levels. Opening up the entire hero pool just means you're largely evaluating the ability to draft in the current patch more than actual playing ability.

ctchocula 6y ago
IIRC, amongst banned heroes were key splitpush heroes such as Nature's Prophet, Tinker and Phantom Lancer, which are a known counter to the early-game advantage, mid-game push strategy that the OpenAI 5 executed. Early-game laning and mid-game teamfight combination are micro-intensive, and consequently the biggest advantage the OpenAI 5 had over OG. Against the simple AI that comes built-in to Dota 2, you can be behind by a ton and exploit splitpushing against the AI, because doing any structural damage against buildings will force the AI (who are gathered up for a push) back, and you will still win if you drag the game sufficiently into the lategame. Deciding whether or not to continue to push and which heroes to send back to defend is one of the hardest strategic decisions to make in the game, even for humans. The finals of one of the TIs, NaVi vs. Alliance, was lost on getting such a decision wrong. Eliminating some key splitpush heroes minimized the probability that OpenAI 5 would have been forced into having to make such a decision. It would not surprise me if the OpenAI 5 would have lost against OG had the entire heropool been available, had the series been long enough or had the prizepool been big enough for OG to take the game seriously enough to warrant picking a splitpushing strategy (which is considered cowardly in some circles).
- wnevets 6y ago
  > IIRC, amongst banned heroes were key splitpush heroes such as Nature's Prophet and Tinker, which are a known counter to the early-game advantage, mid-game push strategy that the OpenAI 5 executed. Tinker is an example of a hero that took (and still takes) a lot of gold to useful. If you're drafting tinker to stop early game push strats you're going to have a bad time. If anything Tinker is actually an example of an hero that the AI would probably excel at, the same goes for any micro dependent hero. In general including heroes that excel with great mechanics is a poor way to evaluate how well the AI actually plays the game. No one doubts an AI can send inputs faster than humans.
bllguo 6y ago
okay? so what's the rebuttal if I, someone who has also played dota for over a decade, say it _is_ important? the game is balanced around the entire roster. in a pool of 17 heroes, the answers to the locally optimal strategy likely don't even exist within said subset. drafting proper compositions, adapting to the opponent's heroes, and dynamically changing your gameplan during the match are all part of actual playing ability.
- wnevets 6y ago
  > okay? so what's the rebuttal if I, someone who has also played dota for over a decade, say it _is_ important? No, the rebuttal is how can someone who has never played the game before claim x,y,z is important or not?
  - TulliusCicero 6y ago
    It doesn't take a Dota expert to realize that removing most of the heroes is going to have a huge impact on strategy.
    - wnevets 6y ago
      It just doesn't when you're evaluating how well an AI actually plays the game. You're missing the forest for the trees by focusing on the hero pool size rather than the AI's map movements, managing power spikes, division of resources, etc