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> I think the narrative of WFH success is in many ways driven by the people for which WFH is a godsend due to really long commute times or having poor office wo

> I think the narrative of WFH success is in many ways driven by the people for which WFH is a godsend due to really long commute times or having poor office workplaces (like open plan) Who doesn't have open plan offices? There are about three people left in the tech industry these days who still have a private office. > But it’s potentially a lot cheaper up front not to have offices, just like open plan offices were cheaper, so I fear MBAs may discount these drawbacks and make WFH the default in many, many places where it’s a bad idea. Working in an open plan space is simply inferior to working remotely, except in rare cases where your team is in a bullpen and working full time on a specific project together. It's inferior for engineers because of distractions, and it's inferior for the company because of real estate costs.

PascLeRasc 6y ago
I actually feel and work much better in an open-plan office. The energy of other people being present keeps me very focused and I really like that it’s so easy to collaborate. I think it helps prevent me from being burned out. However this is all predicated on open office being a layout where your desk is made of wood, hardwood flooring instead of carpet, your coworkers Aeron is 5’ or less from yours, massive windows close by, and there aren’t any forms of walls other than computer monitors. Cubicles require me to attend therapy.
- m463 6y ago
  I think introverts do not thrive in the environment you're describing. Unfortunately introverts are not well represented in management or the types of people who make decisions about seating. Also unfortunately, many (most?) software developers are introverts.
  - maxbreaker 6y ago
    I'm an introvert. And a VPE. In the SF Bay Area. I absolutely despise open office plans. I can't work in them. My productivity shot an incredible amount as soon as I had no choice than to work from home in March, and everybody else in the office. Saved 2 hours a day. And I can use my own bathroom... that alone is worth it.
- 1shooner 6y ago
  >The energy of other people being present keeps me very focused This is the opposite of my personal experience. The energy of other people distracts and interrupts. Collaboration that interrupts focused solo work has rarely if ever been a net gain.
asdff 6y ago
The real estate costs don't go away, they just are paid for by the worker instead of the employer. Now you need to either dedicate square footage to an office setup, or get a bad back working from the couch or the bed or other common home furniture ill suited for long work hours. Maybe you legitimately don't have room in your apartment for this, and now need to invest in another bedroom. Maybe you need to buy faster home internet, or move apartments entirely due to a lack of ISP choices at your address. I've never heard of a business offering a stipend or remote assistance subsidy of any sort to their workers to cover any of this, from whatever great savings are reaped from saving on real estate costs. I think there is a happy medium, where maybe offices cut back to about 25% capacity or so. People would instead drop in and work like a university library. You could go there and print stuff out if you didn't have a printer at home. If your laptop blew up, you could go there and get a replacement from IT. If you preferred, you could rent out a substantial desk with several monitors and a good chair if you didn't have the space at home, or focused better in that environment. You could schedule in person meetings with your team in a well appointed conference room if you wanted. You could host social events. Maybe even a gym or childcare facility. I think that's my ideal for the office environment going forward: less a sweatshop and more a clubhouse.
- mullingitover 6y ago
  > The real estate costs don't go away, they just are paid for by the worker instead of the employer. I'm not sure how many tech workers didn't already have some kind of desktop computing arrangement at home but I have to imagine it's a miniscule number. > I've never heard of a business offering a stipend or remote assistance subsidy of any sort to their workers to cover any of this, from whatever great savings are reaped from saving on real estate costs. My company does, I'm sure it's become pretty standard lately.
  - jdavis703 6y ago
    Software engineer here who before the pandemic had a setup on the sofa or kitchen table. That’s fine for doing a few hours work in the evening. It starts to get ergonomically painful as a full time setup. It’s also annoying sharing a room with my partner who needs to be in meetings all day while I’m trying to write code.
chrisseaton 6y ago
> Who doesn't have open plan offices? Oracle is one company in the Valley with private locking offices with permanent full soundproof doors and outside windows with mountain views. I had one as an intern!
- Der_Einzige 6y ago
  Shhh - don't tell them the secret!
- mrtksn 6y ago
  Wow, if that's what interns get what do the lawyers get?
- mullingitover 6y ago
  This reminds me of a story about early open plan offices in the 80s, where an up-and-coming Microsoft poached talent left and right by offering perks like offices with doors. I wonder if we'll swing the pendulum back in that direction again.
- CamTin 6y ago
  FWIW this definitely wasn't the case for their Austin office pre-pandemic.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    This is why their HQ is so many really narrow tall towers - so less space wasted in the middle.
lucasmullens 6y ago
> Working in an open plan space is simply inferior to working remotely "Simply inferior" is a bit of a bold statement. Lots of people want to go back to their office for various reasons. For me it's wanting to see my co-workers (which are my friends at this point) in person every day. It's certainly not rare.
- mullingitover 6y ago
  I agree that the office is great for socializing, but that isn't what offices are for. I'm talking about trying to do head-down work requiring concentration.
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    It depends, communication is the majority of my job (as a Senior Engineer who codes more than average).
    - mullingitover 6y ago
      Same here, but I find that a Google Meet session is more productive than in-person. We can share screens and talk (with the bonus of being able to record the session), and it's honestly easier to follow than when I'm trying to crane my neck to see over someone's shoulder.
      - vmladenov 6y ago
        In the office, a team or group meeting is a great break from sitting at the desk and an opportunity to be social. At home, it’s yet more staring at the screen at a fixed focus distance and speaking in fits and starts due to network latency. I don’t agree at all that an open office is simply inferior to remote work.
sib 6y ago
>> Who doesn't have open plan offices? There are about three people left in the tech industry these days who still have a private office. There's a big range from true open-plan space (long tables with employees sitting shoulder-to-shoulder next to each other) to private offices with doors. Somewhere in between are traditional "cube farms" which provide some amount of semi-privacy, less distracting nightlines, noise reduction, and feeling of personal space. Most of the companies I've seen are still more like this.

PascLeRasc 6y ago

I actually feel and work much better in an open-plan office. The energy of other people being present keeps me very focused and I really like that it’s so easy to collaborate. I think it helps prevent me from being burned out. However this is all predicated on open office being a layout where your desk is made of wood, hardwood flooring instead of carpet, your coworkers Aeron is 5’ or less from yours, massive windows close by, and there aren’t any forms of walls other than computer monitors. Cubicles require me to attend therapy.

m463 6y ago
I think introverts do not thrive in the environment you're describing. Unfortunately introverts are not well represented in management or the types of people who make decisions about seating. Also unfortunately, many (most?) software developers are introverts.
- maxbreaker 6y ago
  I'm an introvert. And a VPE. In the SF Bay Area. I absolutely despise open office plans. I can't work in them. My productivity shot an incredible amount as soon as I had no choice than to work from home in March, and everybody else in the office. Saved 2 hours a day. And I can use my own bathroom... that alone is worth it.
1shooner 6y ago
>The energy of other people being present keeps me very focused This is the opposite of my personal experience. The energy of other people distracts and interrupts. Collaboration that interrupts focused solo work has rarely if ever been a net gain.

asdff 6y ago

The real estate costs don't go away, they just are paid for by the worker instead of the employer. Now you need to either dedicate square footage to an office setup, or get a bad back working from the couch or the bed or other common home furniture ill suited for long work hours. Maybe you legitimately don't have room in your apartment for this, and now need to invest in another bedroom. Maybe you need to buy faster home internet, or move apartments entirely due to a lack of ISP choices at your address. I've never heard of a business offering a stipend or remote assistance subsidy of any sort to their workers to cover any of this, from whatever great savings are reaped from saving on real estate costs. I think there is a happy medium, where maybe offices cut back to about 25% capacity or so. People would instead drop in and work like a university library. You could go there and print stuff out if you didn't have a printer at home. If your laptop blew up, you could go there and get a replacement from IT. If you preferred, you could rent out a substantial desk with several monitors and a good chair if you didn't have the space at home, or focused better in that environment. You could schedule in person meetings with your team in a well appointed conference room if you wanted. You could host social events. Maybe even a gym or childcare facility. I think that's my ideal for the office environment going forward: less a sweatshop and more a clubhouse.

mullingitover 6y ago
> The real estate costs don't go away, they just are paid for by the worker instead of the employer. I'm not sure how many tech workers didn't already have some kind of desktop computing arrangement at home but I have to imagine it's a miniscule number. > I've never heard of a business offering a stipend or remote assistance subsidy of any sort to their workers to cover any of this, from whatever great savings are reaped from saving on real estate costs. My company does, I'm sure it's become pretty standard lately.
- jdavis703 6y ago
  Software engineer here who before the pandemic had a setup on the sofa or kitchen table. That’s fine for doing a few hours work in the evening. It starts to get ergonomically painful as a full time setup. It’s also annoying sharing a room with my partner who needs to be in meetings all day while I’m trying to write code.

chrisseaton 6y ago

> Who doesn't have open plan offices? Oracle is one company in the Valley with private locking offices with permanent full soundproof doors and outside windows with mountain views. I had one as an intern!

Der_Einzige 6y ago
Shhh - don't tell them the secret!
mrtksn 6y ago
Wow, if that's what interns get what do the lawyers get?
mullingitover 6y ago
This reminds me of a story about early open plan offices in the 80s, where an up-and-coming Microsoft poached talent left and right by offering perks like offices with doors. I wonder if we'll swing the pendulum back in that direction again.
CamTin 6y ago
FWIW this definitely wasn't the case for their Austin office pre-pandemic.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  This is why their HQ is so many really narrow tall towers - so less space wasted in the middle.

lucasmullens 6y ago

> Working in an open plan space is simply inferior to working remotely "Simply inferior" is a bit of a bold statement. Lots of people want to go back to their office for various reasons. For me it's wanting to see my co-workers (which are my friends at this point) in person every day. It's certainly not rare.

mullingitover 6y ago
I agree that the office is great for socializing, but that isn't what offices are for. I'm talking about trying to do head-down work requiring concentration.
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  It depends, communication is the majority of my job (as a Senior Engineer who codes more than average).
  - mullingitover 6y ago
    Same here, but I find that a Google Meet session is more productive than in-person. We can share screens and talk (with the bonus of being able to record the session), and it's honestly easier to follow than when I'm trying to crane my neck to see over someone's shoulder.
    - vmladenov 6y ago
      In the office, a team or group meeting is a great break from sitting at the desk and an opportunity to be social. At home, it’s yet more staring at the screen at a fixed focus distance and speaking in fits and starts due to network latency. I don’t agree at all that an open office is simply inferior to remote work.

sib 6y ago

>> Who doesn't have open plan offices? There are about three people left in the tech industry these days who still have a private office. There's a big range from true open-plan space (long tables with employees sitting shoulder-to-shoulder next to each other) to private offices with doors. Somewhere in between are traditional "cube farms" which provide some amount of semi-privacy, less distracting nightlines, noise reduction, and feeling of personal space. Most of the companies I've seen are still more like this.