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MBA hate here is ridiculous. Blaming MBAs for how companies behave is like blaming people with software engineering degree for writing buggy code. Not having p

MBA hate here is ridiculous. Blaming MBAs for how companies behave is like blaming people with software engineering degree for writing buggy code. Not having people with MBA degree won’t magically make your company better, same as employing developers without a diploma won’t magically make your product more stable.

tehjoker 6y ago
People without business degrees tend to consider more variables than simply optimizing the business for profit extraction at any cost. No guarantee, but that's what an MBA trains people to do. For some reason, doing that causes all kinds of social problems that were completely unanticipated by philosophers in the 1800s.
- ericmay 6y ago
  That might be what some MBA programs do for some graduates but I can at least give you a data point that the MBA program I attended spends a lot of time focusing on how that type of extraction is bad for long-term business. There are some cases where it actually is perfectly ok to extract value from a business before winding it down. But that doesn't mean that all of a sudden anybody with an MBA degree is some sort of ruthless capitalist. I got an MBA because I wanted to learn more about business, network, and hopefully adjust my own personal career path. I can say for Fisher (Ohio State) we spent a lot of time focusing on not just great ways to make money or improve a business, but on people too. At least that was my experience. I'd guess if you spend a lot of time around "ruthless MBAs" you should take a look at what universities they're coming from and see if they have anything in common.
- justapassenger 6y ago
  My software engineering classes taught me really well how to implement red black trees. They shouldn’t, so I don’t use them when they aren’t right tool for the job and I should use linked list instead? That’s the main problem I have with MBA sentiment here. Somehow knowing about something is bad. That’s a very naive viewpoint.
smnrchrds 6y ago
> MBA hate here is ridiculous. It indeed is. Just the other day, when the news came out that Backblaze is sending private info to Facebook, the top comments on HN were along the lines of "I guess some MBA decided it was going to make more money, so they did it." It really takes a special level of blind hatered to blame an MBA (where there is no evidence one was involved) for sending one's information to a company founded and lead by a Harvard computer science major. But yes, let's blame all ills in this world on MBAs. EDIT: Another example I remember was that commenters here started the usual MBA-bashing on an article about how GE's financial engineering became their downfall, until other pointed out the person behind it was GE's former CEO, whose BSc, MSc, and PhD are all in chemical engineering.
closeparen 6y ago
The fundamental critique of an MBA is that presumes "management" or “business” is a thing you can be an expert in, independent of the domain you are managing. If you're a domain expert in something and also an MBA then sure, whatever.
- justapassenger 6y ago
  Business is very similar to software engineering. To be great, it’s an art, that most of the time often requires more broad skills. But you most of the time need also basic knowledge of fundamentals, and that can be enough to be just ok at your job.
- tharne 6y ago
  That's exactly it. There are too many MBA's who have never had a proper job, but will authoritatively tell others how to run a business they know nothing about. An MBA, to the the extent the degree should exist at all, should be something one attains later in life after getting some real world expertise and a hefty amount of domain knowledge.
  - ericmay 6y ago
    I'm commenting on this small thread a lot because it's interesting so I do apologize for that - but where are these MBAs who have never had a proper job getting hired at? I read this and think damn I've had a proper job that I worked at for years before doing my MBA (which I did while working) + 4 years on active duty in the military - and I've really struggled in the job market as it pertains to working at some top companies or startups and it scares me to think maybe I'm getting outcompeted by other MBA program graduates that haven't even held a job before. Not that they can't be capable, but still.... I can't even get a job or interview as a product analyst at this point. No "1-3 years of formal product experience" on my resume... guess I could never do that job! (sorry /rant I've been going through a rough patch with this lately)
    - zsmi 6y ago
      I was thinking the exact same thing. I don't have an MBA myself but I've been asked to write a number of recommendation letters to business school over the years. https://teach.com/resources/how-to-get-into-business-school/ https://teach.com/resources/how-to-get-into-business-school/ It seems in general one needs a degree, a passing GMAT, 2-3 years experience and a recommendation letter. But then again, maybe successfully gaming the entrance to business school is how one demonstrates they're ready for a leadership position in the business world... Just kidding. Kinda ;)
ojbyrne 6y ago
MBA myself, and I can happily contrast the hate here with how much ridicule of engineers there was from business professors when I was in college. I just knock off a few points of my perception of the speaker's competence either way.
- andrewnicolalde 6y ago
  What kinds of anecdotes did your business professors offer?
  - ojbyrne 6y ago
    Mostly along the lines of engineering-centric companies that went out of business (or stayed small/struggled) because they didn’t think about marketing.
- ericmay 6y ago
  My undergraduate was in engineering and it’s fun to look back because we used to do that with business and sales. For a student org we once sold shirts that said “friends don’t let friends become business majors”... which was fun and in jest of course. I didn’t experience a lot of what you described in my MBA program as an engineer, though. Usually it was the opposite, but I think that comes with the maturity of the program I was in where you knew that not only was engineering important and valuable, but so were sales, accounting, nursing, and all sorts of other disciplines.
mancerayder 6y ago
> MBA hate here is ridiculous. > > Blaming MBAs for how companies behave is like blaming people with software engineering degree for writing buggy code. Not having people with MBA degree won’t magically make your company better, same as employing developers without a diploma won’t magically make your product more stable. I think there's a current trend -- perhaps not entirely unjustified -- of skepticism towards academic elitism and a bit of a divide, in the U.S. at least, between those in ivory towers who issue edicts, and boots on the ground. Not taking a side, here, especially being that I'm in management. I do have to say, when I hear of "ethicists" and I recently spoke to someone who taught "medical ethics" while at Google they fired a controversial "AI Ethicist" I have to raise an eyebrow. Ethics are morals. Somehow someone studied them and can tell us the correct ones. Maybe I've mischaracterized this in my head, but it sounds awfully similar to a priesthood.
_carbyau_ 6y ago
The idea though is that having an MBA is meant to make you better at the BA bit. It doesn't feel that way though because having an MBA doesn't guarantee a minimum floor of capability. There is no such thing as losing your MBA for making a dumb decision.
- sologoub 6y ago
  Right, just like losing your privileges to write code for producing too many bugs.... oh wait...

tehjoker 6y ago

People without business degrees tend to consider more variables than simply optimizing the business for profit extraction at any cost. No guarantee, but that's what an MBA trains people to do. For some reason, doing that causes all kinds of social problems that were completely unanticipated by philosophers in the 1800s.

ericmay 6y ago
That might be what some MBA programs do for some graduates but I can at least give you a data point that the MBA program I attended spends a lot of time focusing on how that type of extraction is bad for long-term business. There are some cases where it actually is perfectly ok to extract value from a business before winding it down. But that doesn't mean that all of a sudden anybody with an MBA degree is some sort of ruthless capitalist. I got an MBA because I wanted to learn more about business, network, and hopefully adjust my own personal career path. I can say for Fisher (Ohio State) we spent a lot of time focusing on not just great ways to make money or improve a business, but on people too. At least that was my experience. I'd guess if you spend a lot of time around "ruthless MBAs" you should take a look at what universities they're coming from and see if they have anything in common.
justapassenger 6y ago
My software engineering classes taught me really well how to implement red black trees. They shouldn’t, so I don’t use them when they aren’t right tool for the job and I should use linked list instead? That’s the main problem I have with MBA sentiment here. Somehow knowing about something is bad. That’s a very naive viewpoint.

smnrchrds 6y ago

> MBA hate here is ridiculous. It indeed is. Just the other day, when the news came out that Backblaze is sending private info to Facebook, the top comments on HN were along the lines of "I guess some MBA decided it was going to make more money, so they did it." It really takes a special level of blind hatered to blame an MBA (where there is no evidence one was involved) for sending one's information to a company founded and lead by a Harvard computer science major. But yes, let's blame all ills in this world on MBAs. EDIT: Another example I remember was that commenters here started the usual MBA-bashing on an article about how GE's financial engineering became their downfall, until other pointed out the person behind it was GE's former CEO, whose BSc, MSc, and PhD are all in chemical engineering.

closeparen 6y ago

The fundamental critique of an MBA is that presumes "management" or “business” is a thing you can be an expert in, independent of the domain you are managing. If you're a domain expert in something and also an MBA then sure, whatever.

justapassenger 6y ago
Business is very similar to software engineering. To be great, it’s an art, that most of the time often requires more broad skills. But you most of the time need also basic knowledge of fundamentals, and that can be enough to be just ok at your job.
tharne 6y ago
That's exactly it. There are too many MBA's who have never had a proper job, but will authoritatively tell others how to run a business they know nothing about. An MBA, to the the extent the degree should exist at all, should be something one attains later in life after getting some real world expertise and a hefty amount of domain knowledge.
- ericmay 6y ago
  I'm commenting on this small thread a lot because it's interesting so I do apologize for that - but where are these MBAs who have never had a proper job getting hired at? I read this and think damn I've had a proper job that I worked at for years before doing my MBA (which I did while working) + 4 years on active duty in the military - and I've really struggled in the job market as it pertains to working at some top companies or startups and it scares me to think maybe I'm getting outcompeted by other MBA program graduates that haven't even held a job before. Not that they can't be capable, but still.... I can't even get a job or interview as a product analyst at this point. No "1-3 years of formal product experience" on my resume... guess I could never do that job! (sorry /rant I've been going through a rough patch with this lately)
  - zsmi 6y ago
    I was thinking the exact same thing. I don't have an MBA myself but I've been asked to write a number of recommendation letters to business school over the years. https://teach.com/resources/how-to-get-into-business-school/ https://teach.com/resources/how-to-get-into-business-school/ It seems in general one needs a degree, a passing GMAT, 2-3 years experience and a recommendation letter. But then again, maybe successfully gaming the entrance to business school is how one demonstrates they're ready for a leadership position in the business world... Just kidding. Kinda ;)

ojbyrne 6y ago

MBA myself, and I can happily contrast the hate here with how much ridicule of engineers there was from business professors when I was in college. I just knock off a few points of my perception of the speaker's competence either way.

andrewnicolalde 6y ago
What kinds of anecdotes did your business professors offer?
- ojbyrne 6y ago
  Mostly along the lines of engineering-centric companies that went out of business (or stayed small/struggled) because they didn’t think about marketing.
ericmay 6y ago
My undergraduate was in engineering and it’s fun to look back because we used to do that with business and sales. For a student org we once sold shirts that said “friends don’t let friends become business majors”... which was fun and in jest of course. I didn’t experience a lot of what you described in my MBA program as an engineer, though. Usually it was the opposite, but I think that comes with the maturity of the program I was in where you knew that not only was engineering important and valuable, but so were sales, accounting, nursing, and all sorts of other disciplines.

mancerayder 6y ago

> MBA hate here is ridiculous. > > Blaming MBAs for how companies behave is like blaming people with software engineering degree for writing buggy code. Not having people with MBA degree won’t magically make your company better, same as employing developers without a diploma won’t magically make your product more stable. I think there's a current trend -- perhaps not entirely unjustified -- of skepticism towards academic elitism and a bit of a divide, in the U.S. at least, between those in ivory towers who issue edicts, and boots on the ground. Not taking a side, here, especially being that I'm in management. I do have to say, when I hear of "ethicists" and I recently spoke to someone who taught "medical ethics" while at Google they fired a controversial "AI Ethicist" I have to raise an eyebrow. Ethics are morals. Somehow someone studied them and can tell us the correct ones. Maybe I've mischaracterized this in my head, but it sounds awfully similar to a priesthood.

_carbyau_ 6y ago

The idea though is that having an MBA is meant to make you better at the BA bit. It doesn't feel that way though because having an MBA doesn't guarantee a minimum floor of capability. There is no such thing as losing your MBA for making a dumb decision.

sologoub 6y ago
Right, just like losing your privileges to write code for producing too many bugs.... oh wait...