5 ms·

All things considered, the Hong Kong police did what they had to given their precarious position. Compare the 2 deaths during a year of protesting to the 19 dea

by Aunche 6y ago

All things considered, the Hong Kong police did what they had to given their precarious position. Compare the 2 deaths during a year of protesting to the 19 deaths within a couple weeks of the George Floyd protests. Keep in mind that they're stuck with the Hong Kong police even if they are allowed to become independent, so it doesn't make sense to demonize them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Hong_Kong_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Hong_Kong_prot... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests

bcgraham 6y ago
I would be interested in seeing normalized comparisons, data allowing - e.g., X deaths per person-protest-hour, that sort of thing.
- luckylion 6y ago
  That would likely be even more extreme, wouldn't it? As far as I remember, the protests in HK were massive (as in 5-10% of the population in a single event).
  - bcgraham 6y ago
    That sounds like exactly the kind of meaningful information I’d be interested in.
  - jberryman 6y ago
    10s of millions of people participated in protests last summer in the US. 700k is 10% of HK population. Both are extraordinary, it's not obvious to me who should win the "most well-behaved protest movement" award
    - luckylion 6y ago
      I wasn't aware that there was a single protest event that included 10s of millions of people in the US. If you count all people that were involved in any protest during the last year, I'd expect the numbers in HK to be significantly higher still. It's also not a competition, nobody is trying to diminish the US protests, but I don't think that events of a similar magnitude would have gone down as peaceful in the US.
- coldtea 6y ago
  Protests in some countries might be mild and orderly, or put little pressure to the government and mostly ignored - but this wouldn't necessarily be a sign that the government is more open to protest, just that protests happen to be more "for show" than threatening. It's also about the culture of police violence. In the US citizen life is cheaper (and one would guess, in China too), judging from the number of police shootings alone, and the excessive police force used for everything and anything, that to have deaths in a protest/riot etc is kinda taken as granted or "the way things are". This extends to protest cop behavior. In some countries mild or even heavy violence would be tolerated, but a single death in a demonstration could cause resignations or bring down a government. So there are countries with tons of protests for decades involving 10s or 100s of thousands without a single death (mine didn't have a protest death for ages, despite tons of protests and violent clashes and supression by the police), and countries where a protest can turn into deadly suppression almost immediately (e.g. some Latin American countries).
alasdair_ 6y ago
> Keep in mind that they're stuck with the Hong Kong police even if they are allowed to become independent It’s worth noting that a lot of the “Hong Kong police” that were involved in breaking up protests seemed to come from the mainland and only spoke mandarin, not cantonese. Edit: https://twitter.com/AmyWong01217912/status/1182296322772090880 https://twitter.com/AmyWong01217912/status/11822963227720908... is one of many sources
- justicezyx 6y ago
  Source please? During covid a lot of people were isolated. I doubt anyone mainlanders wanted to risk life to confront the protestors. Note how docile Chinese mainlanders are when they travel around the world.
  - thatguy0900 6y ago
    "Note how docile Chinese mainlanders are when they travel around the world." what would this have to do with Chinese police sent to stop a protest
    - justicezyx 6y ago
      Yes, that's the confusing part. Where are the evidences of such government-sponsored activities? As I said, normal Chinese mainlanders usually don't have much impetus to confront others, even if they wholeheartedly stand against the counterparts, in this case, most mainlanders would be against HK protestors. Then these people are organized by CCP, then what are the evidences?
- Aunche 6y ago
  This is complete hearsay. If China could so easily violate one country, two systems, they wouldn't have cared about a formal extradition bill to begin with.
  - alasdair_ 6y ago
    There are dozens of videos. Google “hong Kong police only speak mandarin” if you want sources. Here is one of many: https://twitter.com/AmyWong01217912/status/1182296322772090880 https://twitter.com/AmyWong01217912/status/11822963227720908...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
medicineman 6y ago
CCP bot go brrrr
coupdejarnac 6y ago
I got to say it's kind of fascinating seeing CCP talking points regurgitated on HN.
- Aunche 6y ago
  How is this a CCP talking point? If anything, the fact that Western HN commenters can't differentiate Hong Kong and the CCP actually paints the CCP as less violent than they actually are.
  - philsnow 6y ago
    > the fact that Western HN commenters can't differentiate Hong Kong and the CCP This is not a fact. Do you have a citation? edit: it's also a pretty vague statement that could be satisfied by finding any two people who "can't differentiate" between HK and the CCP. You didn't say "the majority of Western HN commenters".
    - Aunche 6y ago
      The comment I replied to was equating my defense of the Hong Kong police as "a CCP talking point." How else am I supposed to interpret it?
      - philsnow 6y ago
        > The comment I replied to was equating my defense of the Hong Kong police as "a CCP talking point." How else am I supposed to interpret it? Not as equating HK with the CCP? You wrote "How is this a CCP talking point?". I don't know if touting "only 2 deaths by HK police" is or isn't a CCP talking point, but it ignores the question of how many HK residents were extradited[0] to the mainland, never to be heard from again. So omitting that discussion makes it a statement favorable to the CCP (or at least neutral). [0] if you even want to call the process "extradition" and not straight up "abduction"
        Aunche 6y ago
FabHK 6y ago
I disagree (but don't think your comment deserves oblivion). The HK police force was riddled with corruption in the past (1940s to 1970s), but then (after the creation in 1974 of the Independent Commission Against Corruption) turned around and became highly professional, trusted, and respected, I'd say ("Asia's finest"). However, with the 2014 umbrella movement, they were necessarily pitted against the pro-democracy protesters, having to do the government's bidding, and things got polarised. Polarisation got worse with the 2019 (until now) Anti-Extradition Law protests: restaurants etc. declared themselves "yellow" (pro democracy, pro protesters) or "blue" (pro police, pro Beijing). [1] And, yeah, things got so heated then that the cohesion slipped away and, I think, the HK police did more than "what they had to" while pushing back against the protesters, particularly after Chris Tang's appointment as the Commissioner of Police in November 2019. Police brutality, excessive force, refusal to show identification (as required by law) [2], maybe even falsification of evidence have severely deteriorated trust. Now, with the total crackdown by Beijing, using the courts and the police as their tool, things are only getting worse [3]. :-/ [1] https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/yellow-or-blue-in-hong-kong-choosing-restaurants-has-become-a-political-act https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/yellow-or-blue-i... [2] https://hongkongfp.com/2019/06/21/hong-kong-activists-complain-police-failed-display-id-numbers-security-chief-says-uniform-no-room/ https://hongkongfp.com/2019/06/21/hong-kong-activists-compla... [3] https://hongkongfp.com/2021/01/04/explainer-how-the-national-security-law-changed-hong-kong-month-6/ https://hongkongfp.com/2021/01/04/explainer-how-the-national...
- kenneth 6y ago
  I have to deal with the police on an almost daily basis in the last couple years. They've gotten infinitely worse… they're unnecessarily aggressive, confrontational, and unreasonable. Everyone (almost) hates them here, with good reason. They've basically decided that the public is their enemy and their mission is no longer to protect but to harass. (I live in HK)
  - 02D2CFA4 6y ago
    I also live in HK, and agree with everything you say. But I would change the harass to control. Disagreement and disrespect is what triggers them most. It reminds me of police in the US cities. Grandparent says it's just like they were in the 60s again.
wumaodang 6y ago
Unfortunately it's like sports teams. People's lenses are colored by which team they're on, and it's hard to be objective. I'm actually sad that the one country two systems experiment looks like it's over, at least the political side, not the economic side. But you can't run a city if there are months of people rioting on the streets.

by Aunche 6y ago

bcgraham 6y ago

I would be interested in seeing normalized comparisons, data allowing - e.g., X deaths per person-protest-hour, that sort of thing.

luckylion 6y ago
That would likely be even more extreme, wouldn't it? As far as I remember, the protests in HK were massive (as in 5-10% of the population in a single event).
- bcgraham 6y ago
  That sounds like exactly the kind of meaningful information I’d be interested in.
- jberryman 6y ago
  10s of millions of people participated in protests last summer in the US. 700k is 10% of HK population. Both are extraordinary, it's not obvious to me who should win the "most well-behaved protest movement" award
  - luckylion 6y ago
    I wasn't aware that there was a single protest event that included 10s of millions of people in the US. If you count all people that were involved in any protest during the last year, I'd expect the numbers in HK to be significantly higher still. It's also not a competition, nobody is trying to diminish the US protests, but I don't think that events of a similar magnitude would have gone down as peaceful in the US.
coldtea 6y ago
Protests in some countries might be mild and orderly, or put little pressure to the government and mostly ignored - but this wouldn't necessarily be a sign that the government is more open to protest, just that protests happen to be more "for show" than threatening. It's also about the culture of police violence. In the US citizen life is cheaper (and one would guess, in China too), judging from the number of police shootings alone, and the excessive police force used for everything and anything, that to have deaths in a protest/riot etc is kinda taken as granted or "the way things are". This extends to protest cop behavior. In some countries mild or even heavy violence would be tolerated, but a single death in a demonstration could cause resignations or bring down a government. So there are countries with tons of protests for decades involving 10s or 100s of thousands without a single death (mine didn't have a protest death for ages, despite tons of protests and violent clashes and supression by the police), and countries where a protest can turn into deadly suppression almost immediately (e.g. some Latin American countries).

alasdair_ 6y ago

> Keep in mind that they're stuck with the Hong Kong police even if they are allowed to become independent It’s worth noting that a lot of the “Hong Kong police” that were involved in breaking up protests seemed to come from the mainland and only spoke mandarin, not cantonese. Edit: https://twitter.com/AmyWong01217912/status/1182296322772090880 https://twitter.com/AmyWong01217912/status/11822963227720908... is one of many sources

justicezyx 6y ago
Source please? During covid a lot of people were isolated. I doubt anyone mainlanders wanted to risk life to confront the protestors. Note how docile Chinese mainlanders are when they travel around the world.
- thatguy0900 6y ago
  "Note how docile Chinese mainlanders are when they travel around the world." what would this have to do with Chinese police sent to stop a protest
  - justicezyx 6y ago
    Yes, that's the confusing part. Where are the evidences of such government-sponsored activities? As I said, normal Chinese mainlanders usually don't have much impetus to confront others, even if they wholeheartedly stand against the counterparts, in this case, most mainlanders would be against HK protestors. Then these people are organized by CCP, then what are the evidences?
Aunche 6y ago
This is complete hearsay. If China could so easily violate one country, two systems, they wouldn't have cared about a formal extradition bill to begin with.
- alasdair_ 6y ago
  There are dozens of videos. Google “hong Kong police only speak mandarin” if you want sources. Here is one of many: https://twitter.com/AmyWong01217912/status/1182296322772090880 https://twitter.com/AmyWong01217912/status/11822963227720908...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

medicineman 6y ago

CCP bot go brrrr

coupdejarnac 6y ago

I got to say it's kind of fascinating seeing CCP talking points regurgitated on HN.

Aunche 6y ago
How is this a CCP talking point? If anything, the fact that Western HN commenters can't differentiate Hong Kong and the CCP actually paints the CCP as less violent than they actually are.
- philsnow 6y ago
  > the fact that Western HN commenters can't differentiate Hong Kong and the CCP This is not a fact. Do you have a citation? edit: it's also a pretty vague statement that could be satisfied by finding any two people who "can't differentiate" between HK and the CCP. You didn't say "the majority of Western HN commenters".
  - Aunche 6y ago
    The comment I replied to was equating my defense of the Hong Kong police as "a CCP talking point." How else am I supposed to interpret it?
    - philsnow 6y ago
      > The comment I replied to was equating my defense of the Hong Kong police as "a CCP talking point." How else am I supposed to interpret it? Not as equating HK with the CCP? You wrote "How is this a CCP talking point?". I don't know if touting "only 2 deaths by HK police" is or isn't a CCP talking point, but it ignores the question of how many HK residents were extradited[0] to the mainland, never to be heard from again. So omitting that discussion makes it a statement favorable to the CCP (or at least neutral). [0] if you even want to call the process "extradition" and not straight up "abduction"
      - Aunche 6y ago

FabHK 6y ago

I disagree (but don't think your comment deserves oblivion). The HK police force was riddled with corruption in the past (1940s to 1970s), but then (after the creation in 1974 of the Independent Commission Against Corruption) turned around and became highly professional, trusted, and respected, I'd say ("Asia's finest"). However, with the 2014 umbrella movement, they were necessarily pitted against the pro-democracy protesters, having to do the government's bidding, and things got polarised. Polarisation got worse with the 2019 (until now) Anti-Extradition Law protests: restaurants etc. declared themselves "yellow" (pro democracy, pro protesters) or "blue" (pro police, pro Beijing). [1] And, yeah, things got so heated then that the cohesion slipped away and, I think, the HK police did more than "what they had to" while pushing back against the protesters, particularly after Chris Tang's appointment as the Commissioner of Police in November 2019. Police brutality, excessive force, refusal to show identification (as required by law) [2], maybe even falsification of evidence have severely deteriorated trust. Now, with the total crackdown by Beijing, using the courts and the police as their tool, things are only getting worse [3]. :-/ [1] https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/yellow-or-blue-in-hong-kong-choosing-restaurants-has-become-a-political-act https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/yellow-or-blue-i... [2] https://hongkongfp.com/2019/06/21/hong-kong-activists-complain-police-failed-display-id-numbers-security-chief-says-uniform-no-room/ https://hongkongfp.com/2019/06/21/hong-kong-activists-compla... [3] https://hongkongfp.com/2021/01/04/explainer-how-the-national-security-law-changed-hong-kong-month-6/ https://hongkongfp.com/2021/01/04/explainer-how-the-national...

kenneth 6y ago
I have to deal with the police on an almost daily basis in the last couple years. They've gotten infinitely worse… they're unnecessarily aggressive, confrontational, and unreasonable. Everyone (almost) hates them here, with good reason. They've basically decided that the public is their enemy and their mission is no longer to protect but to harass. (I live in HK)
- 02D2CFA4 6y ago
  I also live in HK, and agree with everything you say. But I would change the harass to control. Disagreement and disrespect is what triggers them most. It reminds me of police in the US cities. Grandparent says it's just like they were in the 60s again.

wumaodang 6y ago

Unfortunately it's like sports teams. People's lenses are colored by which team they're on, and it's hard to be objective. I'm actually sad that the one country two systems experiment looks like it's over, at least the political side, not the economic side. But you can't run a city if there are months of people rioting on the streets.