29 ms·

'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

480 points by lawrenceyan 6y ago

deleted 6y ago
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Context_free 6y ago
It's great how the protestors stormed the legislature, beat up security guards, spray painted the walls, threatened legislators etc., spurred on by the US president. I am talking about the storming of the US Capitol, not the Hong Kong legislature.
- boredumb 6y ago
  Shame they weren't throwing molotov cocktails like in the video you are commenting on, right? That behavior in the united states is only condoned when directed towards private businesses and individuals in the name of minority groups.
  - sixothree 6y ago
    Condoned by whom?
    - boredumb 6y ago
      Large American media outlets, large swaths of vocal people and bots on social media, well known american politicians, and people playing coy on the internet.
- sixothree 6y ago
  Do you really support them? Are you drawing comparisons from an open and distributed set of individually state-run elections to Chinese system?
throw2103241547 6y ago
> to extradite criminal suspects to mainland China I did not know that Taiwan is part of mainland China! When did the reunification happen? In all serious though, the original bill was because HK government wanted to extradite someone who killed his pregnant girlfriend to Taiwan, I wonder when did people spin this into extradition to mainland China now?
deleted 6y ago
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rado 6y ago
Only democracy can save us from this disaster of the colonial government of China. Huh?
hi5eyes 6y ago
anyone else have family/friends working/born and raised in hk and have zero care about the "protests" ? yeah most people go about their lives while the media bread and circus blasted this to western audiences when it was trendy. extremely amusing to watch internet nobodies absolutely nuke reddit with hk posts when chances are they have no idea how to locate hk on a map
- SiempreViernes 6y ago
  Well, it's hardly surprising that media reports about the integration of a fairly liberal city into a very repressive dictatorship. Honestly, how do you feel about anything that isn't local news? Most of national news will be reporting about people you will never meet and don't know too.
  - rado 6y ago
    Liberal yes. But they insist on "democracy" which is ridiculous, as it didn't happen under the British. They "almost" instated it shortly before the handover, but didn't succeed for some reason. Extremely amusing indeed. And HK people's lives were almost unbearable under the tycoons' feudalism, which has nothing to do with Beijing.
    - bordercases 6y ago
      This comparison presumes a false choice between either close governance by China, or governance that resembles the old British order ("tycoon feudalism"). Why can't it be something else entirely?
      - rado 6y ago
        Sure it can. But that's not the protesters' rhetoric.
    - Context_free 6y ago
      In 1967 under the British, dozens of Chinese protesting against British rule and for representation were killed in Hong Kong.
jonathannat 6y ago
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/18/hong-kong-huge-rally-china-condemns-us-gross-interference https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/18/hong-kong-huge... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48656471 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48656471 At many different times in 2019, 1.7M-2M Hong Kong citizens, or 25% of the population, proudly protested in the streets and requested for their freedom. If only something good had came out of it. Now it's sunk to what China's best at: false arrests: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/mc5bah/young_man_subdued_by_tuen_mun_police_a_bag_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/mc5bah/young_man_..., arrest for accessing online information https://restofworld.org/2021/hong-kong-journalist-on-trial-for-using-public-database/ https://restofworld.org/2021/hong-kong-journalist-on-trial-f... brainwashing https://hongkongfp.com/2021/03/23/hong-kong-will-distribute-mainland-books-to-schools-to-promote-patriotism/ https://hongkongfp.com/2021/03/23/hong-kong-will-distribute-... removal of religious freedom https://hk.appledaily.com/news/20210322/ZUYEZROAIFB4NK2274RBMT7QDY/ https://hk.appledaily.com/news/20210322/ZUYEZROAIFB4NK2274RB... fake democratic system https://hongkongfp.com/2021/03/16/why-and-how-i-ended-my-participation-in-an-undemocratic-electoral-system https://hongkongfp.com/2021/03/16/why-and-how-i-ended-my-par... Imagine if you were a proud free parisian, and all of a sudden, you now live under nazi regime with concentration camps. That's probably what it feels like.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- k_sze 6y ago
  I live in HK. 1.7M-2M is a really large exaggeration.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago
    What is your estimate, and how did you measure it? I live in Paris where most of French demonstrations take place (including the yellow vest movement) but I can't pretend to have better estimates than all local and global media sources and public observers.
    - 6y ago
pelagicAustral 6y ago
I wonder if they're still using pepes in HK.
- hker 6y ago
  For those out of the loop: Hong Kong Protesters Love Pepe the Frog. No, They’re Not Alt-Right. [1] I think the protest is going underground after the Security Law and recent crackdown. So it is harder to see symbols of protests. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/19/world/asia/hong-kong-protest-pepe-frog.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/19/world/asia/hong-kong-prot...
system16 6y ago
The CPC propaganda department has ordered its local media to stagger the Oscars this year and downplay the event because this documentary short was nominated. https://variety.com/2021/film/asia/china-tells-media-stagger-oscars-broadcast-1234932535/ https://variety.com/2021/film/asia/china-tells-media-stagger... I watched it recently and thought it didn't go nearly far enough in highlighting the abuses by the HK police, and even glossed over or omitted some very important events that triggered the continued protests. I actually felt it was far too fair to the HKSAR government and police. The fragility of the CPC and its fear in being portrayed in any negative light knows no limits.
- Aunche 6y ago
  All things considered, the Hong Kong police did what they had to given their precarious position. Compare the 2 deaths during a year of protesting to the 19 deaths within a couple weeks of the George Floyd protests. Keep in mind that they're stuck with the Hong Kong police even if they are allowed to become independent, so it doesn't make sense to demonize them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Hong_Kong_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Hong_Kong_prot... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests
  - bcgraham 6y ago
    I would be interested in seeing normalized comparisons, data allowing - e.g., X deaths per person-protest-hour, that sort of thing.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      That would likely be even more extreme, wouldn't it? As far as I remember, the protests in HK were massive (as in 5-10% of the population in a single event).
      - bcgraham 6y ago
        That sounds like exactly the kind of meaningful information I’d be interested in.
newbie578 6y ago
Let’s see how long it takes until the brigade arrives and starts saying how America is bad, and China does no wrong. :)
- antihero 6y ago
  Is it not healthy to be critical of both Western influenced narratives AND CCP influenced ones?
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
    They simply said there is a brigade of "america bad, china good" Also, this film is about Hong Kong. Talking about things the US doesn't do well steers us off topic. We have plenty of other threads to do that in.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > They simply said there is a brigade of "america bad, china good" And there isn't, but there are comments that refuse to jump to shallow thinking and consider how we'd see the protests, reactions and outcomes had they happened elsewhere. That's very different though.
- elisaado 6y ago
  There's already a couple of flagged and dead comments.
  - wumaodang 6y ago
    And it's all the pro-China comments that are getting flagged. Who's doing the brigading I wonder?
- banannaise 6y ago
  Why are we treating this as an either/or? China and America largely use the same tactics to suppress protest, and they're bad in both places. The only significant difference is that in China, the media suppression comes from the government, and in America, it comes from the leaders of the media itself.
badpassword123 6y ago
> to extradite criminal suspects to mainland China I did not know that Taiwan is part of mainland China! When did the reunification happen? In all serious though, the original bill was because HK government wanted to extradite someone who killed his pregnant girlfriend to Taiwan, I wonder when did people spin this into extradition to mainland China now?
MsMowz 6y ago
I'll try to strictly source my remarks and refrain from commenting on the political content of the HK demonstrations to keep this purely factual, as I think this could be a rather controversial thread; however, it's interesting how different the reception to these demonstrations is to the reception to the US Capitol riots and the BLM demonstrations of last year. Hong Kong demonstrators have stormed government buildings[1], thrown gasoline bombs at police[2], attacked plainclothes police[3], and the like. In total, one pro-liberalization demonstrator died after falling from a parking garage[4], and one anti-liberalization demonstrator died after being bludgeoned with a brick by pro-liberalization demonstrators[5]. To keep this in context, the current Hong Kong SAR government is democratically elected[6] according to the provisions of an international treaty signed by the PRC and the UK which took effect in 1997[7]. If these events occurred in the United States, whose government surveils almost all telecommunications[8], what would its government do? One part of that answer is to have the military occupy a city with limited congressional representation (DC)[9]. This is clearly a much more restrictive measure than the measures taken by the HKSAR government, but its presentation by non-Chinese media has been the exact opposite. For what it's worth (zero), my opinion is that both government responses are consistent with what can be expected given their respective situations. Why are they portrayed differently? Is it ideology, or am I missing something that differentiates the two? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storming_of_the_Legislative_Council_Complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storming_of_the_Legislative_Co... [2]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50115629 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50115629 [3]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/hong-kong-police-tear-gas-rally-after-protesters-attack-plainclothes-agents/2020/01/19/589d8272-3a99-11ea-a1ff-c48c1d59a4a1_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/hong-kong-... [4]: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3036833/hong-kong-student-who-suffered-severe-brain-injury-after https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3036833... [5]: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/14/asia/hong-kong-protest-elderly-man-dies-intl-hnk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/14/asia/hong-kong-protest-el... [6]: http://www.legco.gov.hk/general/english/intro/about_lc.htm http://www.legco.gov.hk/general/english/intro/about_lc.htm [7]: http://www.cmab.gov.hk/en/issues/jd2.htm http://www.cmab.gov.hk/en/issues/jd2.htm [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) [9]: https://nypost.com/2021/03/09/pentagon-extends-national-guard-protection-at-us-capitol/ https://nypost.com/2021/03/09/pentagon-extends-national-guar...
varispeed 6y ago
Western politicians are looking up to their Chinese friends with awe. They feel sheer excitement when they think how much power Chinese government wields. They don't particularly like the concentration camps or child labour (although for sure their rich mates would love to have free labour on tap), but social scoring? Playing Sim City with real human lives? Yes please, sign me up! That's why you don't see anything done to help Hong Kong. They are trying to go the opposite way to which Western social-democracies are drifting towards. The lockdowns was like that first taste of human blood and there are already plans how to make our lives a game where the government officials are the masters.
- president 6y ago
  It's a fundamental issue of the kind of people who will do whatever it takes to have power over others. You meet plenty of people like this that work in corporations stepping on others and backstabbing to get promoted or get that raise.
  - varispeed 6y ago
    Exactly this - Chinese people are not fundamentally different from us. We have more or less the same desires or worries and the same type of people usually come to power. Politicians of all sides always wanted to exert a degree of control over the society and today's technology finally can make it happen. There is no way they'll pass on such opportunity. It is taking small steps - they start with the control of money - the equivalents of IRS have live access to individuals and corporation bank accounts. Then you have promotion of cashless society. Once they'll get control over your means to eat, they'll take on controlling behaviours. It's going downhill.
williesleg 6y ago
Not available here in china.
ttul 6y ago
The Economist did a comprehensive piece on the future of Hong Kong [1] recently. The CPC has little to lose by crushing Hong Kong's democracy, which they are most assuredly doing. Even if HK loses a healthy proportion of its best and brightest citizens (many are moving or have moved already), Hong Kong represents only a tiny fraction of China's overall GDP. In the long time horizon of China's development, Hong Kong's health is viewed as inconsequential. To me, the Hong Kong situation is incredibly sad. Hong Kong was always this unique bastion of feisty entrepreneurism and social liberalism. It was a great place to visit and a fountain of ideas and dynamism that other regions would do well to take notes on, if not to copy outright. I wish there was cause to be optimistic about Hong Kong, but I don't think that there is. [1]: https://www.economist.com/briefing/2021/03/20/china-is-not-just-shackling-hong-kong-it-is-remaking-it https://www.economist.com/briefing/2021/03/20/china-is-not-j...
jimworm 6y ago
The whole point of "not splitting" is a lesson learned in 2014, to continue showing support for the goals no matter the methods seen in protest. Nobody knew whether another in the group is an agent provocateur or a genuine radical. Nobody knew who were throwing the molotovs. Nobody even thought that the protest was likely achieve any its goals. The only thing that could not be faked is the sheer volume of people showing up; nobody could pay that many people to show up at a protest. Therefore the only thing they could do is to keep showing up in support of the demands for as long as they could personally afford to do so, and try not to pay attention to the methods of others when they already knew that all methods were probably going to fail.
lxe 6y ago
This is the kind of content I'd like to see less of on Hacker News. > Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. There are other platforms (Reddit) where there's plenty of discussion around topics like this. Not to say that HN should be a bastion of blissful techie ignorance, but it would be nice to be able to filter out sad, political, or controversial content.
- La1n 6y ago
  I don't even think political content is inherently not HN worthy, but the comment section just always devolves into flamewars and "x is bad" vs "y is bad". I would really like to see a filter or harder moderation on the submitters of this type of content.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- dalbasal 6y ago
  Most isn't all, and I would make the case for an exception here... at least in ideal terms. The HK protests had a vanguard element that qualifies as "evidence of some interesting new phenomenon." This film captures some of that. That said, HN (like most social media) doesn't handle this kind of content very well... in practical terms. Might be best to go with a practical "do what you can do well" approach and avoid topics you can't do well. Maybe a "no comments" post type for topics like this?
- ISL 6y ago
  The suppression of democracy is something I'd like to see less of globally. Perhaps the strongest argument in favor of leaving it up on Hacker News is that free speech is essential to both Hacking and News. I hadn't known that such a film had drawn an Oscar nomination nor that the country had attempted to suppress news of the nomination within the mainland. We may disagree here, but if wholesale suppression of the democratic rights of 7.5 million people living in the first world continues to be advanced, I'd contend that it isn't getting enough discussion.
deleted 6y ago
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f430 6y ago
One VC I worked in the past openly derided the Hong Kong protest as American influenced subversion. I realized that not only is it important to have common business vision but also a common baseline when it comes to human rights. I dropped his ass and he was not invited again to our meetings ever again. Likewise, if I catch a whiff of someone showing support for Uighur genocide, persecution of Falun Gong, downplaying of Hong Kong and Taiwan independence, they will never ever be invited to invest in our portfolio. I always investigate, I will hire private investigators if need be. 光復香港時代革命香港人, 加油五大訴求缺一不可沒有暴徒只有暴政香港警察知法犯法 edit: no surprise HN takes sides here by downvoting. Many startups are unscrupulous and do not ask questions about who is investing in them. Just know that the money you accept might be tainted with blood and human suffering. May you wake up one day from the greed that blinds you in this life.
- ksec 6y ago
  Were the (VC) based in HK? Just wondering.
  - f430 6y ago
    Yes. However there are now Americans who are touting the same propaganda. It's frightening to see how greed easily corrupts them. They are on HN right now reading my comments.
    - ksec 6y ago
      If you dont mind sharing the name of the VC? Email in my profile.
- justicezyx 6y ago
  What organization you represent? I'd like to share this strong stance openly. I fully support both sides to openly discuss their standings and rationale, not the "cancelling" tactics that suffocates constructive debates.
  - threatofrain 6y ago
wumaodang 6y ago
In DC, it was a riot, but in Hong Kong it was merely a protest, right? And only in one of those cities were there gasoline bombs thrown on the street.
- Quillbert182 6y ago
  In Hong Kong it was a revolution. They weren't fighting for ambiguous policy change, they were fighting for independence.
  - wumaodang 6y ago
    If you listen to them, they say they're not separatists... But if they were that's all the more reason for there to be criminal penalties for their actions. And you better hope the same happens in the US when the FBI goes after the "Boogaloo Boys."
    - systemvoltage 6y ago
      You need to get recalibrated. 25% of the people of HK were involved in protests in some form or the other. Boogaloo Boys do not consist of 80 million US citizens. They're a fringe group trying to be a militia. HK citizens were violent because their voices were not heard, they're not a militia, nor are they fighting to oppress and upend democracy, they're fighting for the exact opposite.
      - HKH2 6y ago
        The people who were violent were definitely nowhere near 25%, most probably not even 5%. You can see in video after video that they're mostly young people (20s), and their message was "burn with us" [1]. Carrie Lam withdrew the bill and that still wasn't enough for them. Realistically, they were never going to get the 5 demands met, and it was clear they wanted to incite police violence. There were plenty of people, especially those who were a bit older and those who owned small businesses who wished they would go away, and the national security law has guaranteed that. I know HK culture is quite separate from Mainland culture in quite a few aspects, but I can't see how any of the violence has helped. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lam_chau_(doctrine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lam_chau_(doctrine)
tablespoon 6y ago
I've been on a bit of an youtube archiving kick lately. Does anyone know of a good list of youtube videos that were uploaded during the protests (e.g. documenting the protest, police brutality, etc)? I'm probably too late to the party though, since I understand a lot of protesters took down their social media uploads in support of the protests after the national security law was enacted.
- chinathrow1029 6y ago
  Here’s a good place to start: https://www.truth-hk.com/violences/categories/violence https://www.truth-hk.com/violences/categories/violence
  - tablespoon 6y ago
    Nice troll.
- philsnow 6y ago
  https://imgur.com/user/SavingHongKong https://imgur.com/user/SavingHongKong has a lot, not just of the protests, though.
eric_b 6y ago
In the US I've been sadly unsurprised by how little coverage Hong Kong has gotten recently. Our politicians are a disgrace. They scream about democracy when a bunch of hooligans riot at the Capitol, but when a human-rights defiling government legitimately suppresses democracy for 7M people, they stay silent. They stay silent on organ harvesting, on the quasi-genocide of the Uighurs, and any number of other human rights abuses. If the politicians, particularly those on the left, had an ounce of principle and even attempted to walk their talk, they would be leading the charge against China at every turn. Here is a chance to step up for human rights and democracy in a big way, and it's crickets from our leaders.
nafizh 6y ago
There is no doubt in my mind that Taiwan is the next target unless another axis of power comes to its aid. It's only a matter of time and the success in HK would have only bolstered CCP's conviction. Because China is hosting the winter Olympics, I don't think they will do anything of this scale before that.
- wumaodang 6y ago
  There are certainly a lot of commentators predicting that some kind of military conflict will happen over Taiwan in the next decade. If it happens, it'll be the closest we get to World War III, so hopefully cooler heads will prevail.
yeetman21 6y ago
can we please not turn this place into r*ddit?
osynavets 6y ago
Reminds me about another film with the same theme: winter on fire. Film about protests in my own country Ukraine. Horrible events
- lovelyviking 6y ago
  Winter on Fire | 'Filming on the Front Lines' Featurette | Netflix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m76G2K19X8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m76G2K19X8
lovelyviking 6y ago
One more film(VR). One more democracy under attack by former communists. Dnipro – outpost of Ukraine - VR version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AS1cOAm6gI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AS1cOAm6gI This one is one step further - with millitary forces and war. Can those communists be former really ...
HenryBemis 6y ago
Uuuffff.. HK is 'dead in the water'. UK abandoned HK, creating a vacuum, leaving the door open to China to step in and take over; and nobody wants to risk stepping-in to block China from absorbing HK. China will (literally) fight anyone who will dare step their foot in HK to 'guarantee' its independence. I don't believe anyone is able to stand up to China, apart from Russia or USA. And neither are willing to go to war for HK. It's someone else's problem. Worse case scenario when the transition is complete, HK will die as a global financial centre, and its big-banks operations will move to a more USA-friendly place. Poor HK-ers could as well replace their flag. It's a pity, but such is the luck of the ant in front of a elephant.
hi41 6y ago
The rioters set fire to the bank. How is this okay. Regular people like you and I work at the bank and now their livelihoods could be lost. Violence begets more violence. I cannot sympathize with the rioters.

480 points by lawrenceyan 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

It's great how the protestors stormed the legislature, beat up security guards, spray painted the walls, threatened legislators etc., spurred on by the US president. I am talking about the storming of the US Capitol, not the Hong Kong legislature.

boredumb 6y ago
Shame they weren't throwing molotov cocktails like in the video you are commenting on, right? That behavior in the united states is only condoned when directed towards private businesses and individuals in the name of minority groups.
- sixothree 6y ago
  Condoned by whom?
  - boredumb 6y ago
    Large American media outlets, large swaths of vocal people and bots on social media, well known american politicians, and people playing coy on the internet.
sixothree 6y ago
Do you really support them? Are you drawing comparisons from an open and distributed set of individually state-run elections to Chinese system?

throw2103241547 6y ago

> to extradite criminal suspects to mainland China I did not know that Taiwan is part of mainland China! When did the reunification happen? In all serious though, the original bill was because HK government wanted to extradite someone who killed his pregnant girlfriend to Taiwan, I wonder when did people spin this into extradition to mainland China now?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

rado 6y ago

Only democracy can save us from this disaster of the colonial government of China. Huh?

hi5eyes 6y ago

anyone else have family/friends working/born and raised in hk and have zero care about the "protests" ? yeah most people go about their lives while the media bread and circus blasted this to western audiences when it was trendy. extremely amusing to watch internet nobodies absolutely nuke reddit with hk posts when chances are they have no idea how to locate hk on a map

SiempreViernes 6y ago
Well, it's hardly surprising that media reports about the integration of a fairly liberal city into a very repressive dictatorship. Honestly, how do you feel about anything that isn't local news? Most of national news will be reporting about people you will never meet and don't know too.
- rado 6y ago
  Liberal yes. But they insist on "democracy" which is ridiculous, as it didn't happen under the British. They "almost" instated it shortly before the handover, but didn't succeed for some reason. Extremely amusing indeed. And HK people's lives were almost unbearable under the tycoons' feudalism, which has nothing to do with Beijing.
  - bordercases 6y ago
    This comparison presumes a false choice between either close governance by China, or governance that resembles the old British order ("tycoon feudalism"). Why can't it be something else entirely?
    - rado 6y ago
      Sure it can. But that's not the protesters' rhetoric.
  - Context_free 6y ago
    In 1967 under the British, dozens of Chinese protesting against British rule and for representation were killed in Hong Kong.

jonathannat 6y ago

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/18/hong-kong-huge-rally-china-condemns-us-gross-interference https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/18/hong-kong-huge... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48656471 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48656471 At many different times in 2019, 1.7M-2M Hong Kong citizens, or 25% of the population, proudly protested in the streets and requested for their freedom. If only something good had came out of it. Now it's sunk to what China's best at: false arrests: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/mc5bah/young_man_subdued_by_tuen_mun_police_a_bag_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/mc5bah/young_man_..., arrest for accessing online information https://restofworld.org/2021/hong-kong-journalist-on-trial-for-using-public-database/ https://restofworld.org/2021/hong-kong-journalist-on-trial-f... brainwashing https://hongkongfp.com/2021/03/23/hong-kong-will-distribute-mainland-books-to-schools-to-promote-patriotism/ https://hongkongfp.com/2021/03/23/hong-kong-will-distribute-... removal of religious freedom https://hk.appledaily.com/news/20210322/ZUYEZROAIFB4NK2274RBMT7QDY/ https://hk.appledaily.com/news/20210322/ZUYEZROAIFB4NK2274RB... fake democratic system https://hongkongfp.com/2021/03/16/why-and-how-i-ended-my-participation-in-an-undemocratic-electoral-system https://hongkongfp.com/2021/03/16/why-and-how-i-ended-my-par... Imagine if you were a proud free parisian, and all of a sudden, you now live under nazi regime with concentration camps. That's probably what it feels like.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
k_sze 6y ago
I live in HK. 1.7M-2M is a really large exaggeration.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago
  What is your estimate, and how did you measure it? I live in Paris where most of French demonstrations take place (including the yellow vest movement) but I can't pretend to have better estimates than all local and global media sources and public observers.
  - 6y ago

pelagicAustral 6y ago

I wonder if they're still using pepes in HK.

hker 6y ago
For those out of the loop: Hong Kong Protesters Love Pepe the Frog. No, They’re Not Alt-Right. [1] I think the protest is going underground after the Security Law and recent crackdown. So it is harder to see symbols of protests. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/19/world/asia/hong-kong-protest-pepe-frog.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/19/world/asia/hong-kong-prot...

system16 6y ago

The CPC propaganda department has ordered its local media to stagger the Oscars this year and downplay the event because this documentary short was nominated. https://variety.com/2021/film/asia/china-tells-media-stagger-oscars-broadcast-1234932535/ https://variety.com/2021/film/asia/china-tells-media-stagger... I watched it recently and thought it didn't go nearly far enough in highlighting the abuses by the HK police, and even glossed over or omitted some very important events that triggered the continued protests. I actually felt it was far too fair to the HKSAR government and police. The fragility of the CPC and its fear in being portrayed in any negative light knows no limits.

Aunche 6y ago
All things considered, the Hong Kong police did what they had to given their precarious position. Compare the 2 deaths during a year of protesting to the 19 deaths within a couple weeks of the George Floyd protests. Keep in mind that they're stuck with the Hong Kong police even if they are allowed to become independent, so it doesn't make sense to demonize them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Hong_Kong_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Hong_Kong_prot... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests
- bcgraham 6y ago
  I would be interested in seeing normalized comparisons, data allowing - e.g., X deaths per person-protest-hour, that sort of thing.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    That would likely be even more extreme, wouldn't it? As far as I remember, the protests in HK were massive (as in 5-10% of the population in a single event).
    - bcgraham 6y ago
      That sounds like exactly the kind of meaningful information I’d be interested in.

newbie578 6y ago

Let’s see how long it takes until the brigade arrives and starts saying how America is bad, and China does no wrong. :)

antihero 6y ago
Is it not healthy to be critical of both Western influenced narratives AND CCP influenced ones?
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
  They simply said there is a brigade of "america bad, china good" Also, this film is about Hong Kong. Talking about things the US doesn't do well steers us off topic. We have plenty of other threads to do that in.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > They simply said there is a brigade of "america bad, china good" And there isn't, but there are comments that refuse to jump to shallow thinking and consider how we'd see the protests, reactions and outcomes had they happened elsewhere. That's very different though.
elisaado 6y ago
There's already a couple of flagged and dead comments.
- wumaodang 6y ago
  And it's all the pro-China comments that are getting flagged. Who's doing the brigading I wonder?
banannaise 6y ago
Why are we treating this as an either/or? China and America largely use the same tactics to suppress protest, and they're bad in both places. The only significant difference is that in China, the media suppression comes from the government, and in America, it comes from the leaders of the media itself.

badpassword123 6y ago

MsMowz 6y ago

I'll try to strictly source my remarks and refrain from commenting on the political content of the HK demonstrations to keep this purely factual, as I think this could be a rather controversial thread; however, it's interesting how different the reception to these demonstrations is to the reception to the US Capitol riots and the BLM demonstrations of last year. Hong Kong demonstrators have stormed government buildings[1], thrown gasoline bombs at police[2], attacked plainclothes police[3], and the like. In total, one pro-liberalization demonstrator died after falling from a parking garage[4], and one anti-liberalization demonstrator died after being bludgeoned with a brick by pro-liberalization demonstrators[5]. To keep this in context, the current Hong Kong SAR government is democratically elected[6] according to the provisions of an international treaty signed by the PRC and the UK which took effect in 1997[7]. If these events occurred in the United States, whose government surveils almost all telecommunications[8], what would its government do? One part of that answer is to have the military occupy a city with limited congressional representation (DC)[9]. This is clearly a much more restrictive measure than the measures taken by the HKSAR government, but its presentation by non-Chinese media has been the exact opposite. For what it's worth (zero), my opinion is that both government responses are consistent with what can be expected given their respective situations. Why are they portrayed differently? Is it ideology, or am I missing something that differentiates the two? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storming_of_the_Legislative_Council_Complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storming_of_the_Legislative_Co... [2]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50115629 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50115629 [3]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/hong-kong-police-tear-gas-rally-after-protesters-attack-plainclothes-agents/2020/01/19/589d8272-3a99-11ea-a1ff-c48c1d59a4a1_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/hong-kong-... [4]: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3036833/hong-kong-student-who-suffered-severe-brain-injury-after https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3036833... [5]: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/14/asia/hong-kong-protest-elderly-man-dies-intl-hnk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/14/asia/hong-kong-protest-el... [6]: http://www.legco.gov.hk/general/english/intro/about_lc.htm http://www.legco.gov.hk/general/english/intro/about_lc.htm [7]: http://www.cmab.gov.hk/en/issues/jd2.htm http://www.cmab.gov.hk/en/issues/jd2.htm [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) [9]: https://nypost.com/2021/03/09/pentagon-extends-national-guard-protection-at-us-capitol/ https://nypost.com/2021/03/09/pentagon-extends-national-guar...

varispeed 6y ago

Western politicians are looking up to their Chinese friends with awe. They feel sheer excitement when they think how much power Chinese government wields. They don't particularly like the concentration camps or child labour (although for sure their rich mates would love to have free labour on tap), but social scoring? Playing Sim City with real human lives? Yes please, sign me up! That's why you don't see anything done to help Hong Kong. They are trying to go the opposite way to which Western social-democracies are drifting towards. The lockdowns was like that first taste of human blood and there are already plans how to make our lives a game where the government officials are the masters.

president 6y ago
It's a fundamental issue of the kind of people who will do whatever it takes to have power over others. You meet plenty of people like this that work in corporations stepping on others and backstabbing to get promoted or get that raise.
- varispeed 6y ago
  Exactly this - Chinese people are not fundamentally different from us. We have more or less the same desires or worries and the same type of people usually come to power. Politicians of all sides always wanted to exert a degree of control over the society and today's technology finally can make it happen. There is no way they'll pass on such opportunity. It is taking small steps - they start with the control of money - the equivalents of IRS have live access to individuals and corporation bank accounts. Then you have promotion of cashless society. Once they'll get control over your means to eat, they'll take on controlling behaviours. It's going downhill.

williesleg 6y ago

Not available here in china.

ttul 6y ago

The Economist did a comprehensive piece on the future of Hong Kong [1] recently. The CPC has little to lose by crushing Hong Kong's democracy, which they are most assuredly doing. Even if HK loses a healthy proportion of its best and brightest citizens (many are moving or have moved already), Hong Kong represents only a tiny fraction of China's overall GDP. In the long time horizon of China's development, Hong Kong's health is viewed as inconsequential. To me, the Hong Kong situation is incredibly sad. Hong Kong was always this unique bastion of feisty entrepreneurism and social liberalism. It was a great place to visit and a fountain of ideas and dynamism that other regions would do well to take notes on, if not to copy outright. I wish there was cause to be optimistic about Hong Kong, but I don't think that there is. [1]: https://www.economist.com/briefing/2021/03/20/china-is-not-just-shackling-hong-kong-it-is-remaking-it https://www.economist.com/briefing/2021/03/20/china-is-not-j...

jimworm 6y ago

The whole point of "not splitting" is a lesson learned in 2014, to continue showing support for the goals no matter the methods seen in protest. Nobody knew whether another in the group is an agent provocateur or a genuine radical. Nobody knew who were throwing the molotovs. Nobody even thought that the protest was likely achieve any its goals. The only thing that could not be faked is the sheer volume of people showing up; nobody could pay that many people to show up at a protest. Therefore the only thing they could do is to keep showing up in support of the demands for as long as they could personally afford to do so, and try not to pay attention to the methods of others when they already knew that all methods were probably going to fail.

lxe 6y ago

This is the kind of content I'd like to see less of on Hacker News. > Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. There are other platforms (Reddit) where there's plenty of discussion around topics like this. Not to say that HN should be a bastion of blissful techie ignorance, but it would be nice to be able to filter out sad, political, or controversial content.

La1n 6y ago
I don't even think political content is inherently not HN worthy, but the comment section just always devolves into flamewars and "x is bad" vs "y is bad". I would really like to see a filter or harder moderation on the submitters of this type of content.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
dalbasal 6y ago
Most isn't all, and I would make the case for an exception here... at least in ideal terms. The HK protests had a vanguard element that qualifies as "evidence of some interesting new phenomenon." This film captures some of that. That said, HN (like most social media) doesn't handle this kind of content very well... in practical terms. Might be best to go with a practical "do what you can do well" approach and avoid topics you can't do well. Maybe a "no comments" post type for topics like this?
ISL 6y ago
The suppression of democracy is something I'd like to see less of globally. Perhaps the strongest argument in favor of leaving it up on Hacker News is that free speech is essential to both Hacking and News. I hadn't known that such a film had drawn an Oscar nomination nor that the country had attempted to suppress news of the nomination within the mainland. We may disagree here, but if wholesale suppression of the democratic rights of 7.5 million people living in the first world continues to be advanced, I'd contend that it isn't getting enough discussion.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

f430 6y ago

One VC I worked in the past openly derided the Hong Kong protest as American influenced subversion. I realized that not only is it important to have common business vision but also a common baseline when it comes to human rights. I dropped his ass and he was not invited again to our meetings ever again. Likewise, if I catch a whiff of someone showing support for Uighur genocide, persecution of Falun Gong, downplaying of Hong Kong and Taiwan independence, they will never ever be invited to invest in our portfolio. I always investigate, I will hire private investigators if need be. 光復香港時代革命香港人, 加油五大訴求缺一不可沒有暴徒只有暴政香港警察知法犯法 edit: no surprise HN takes sides here by downvoting. Many startups are unscrupulous and do not ask questions about who is investing in them. Just know that the money you accept might be tainted with blood and human suffering. May you wake up one day from the greed that blinds you in this life.

ksec 6y ago
Were the (VC) based in HK? Just wondering.
- f430 6y ago
  Yes. However there are now Americans who are touting the same propaganda. It's frightening to see how greed easily corrupts them. They are on HN right now reading my comments.
  - ksec 6y ago
    If you dont mind sharing the name of the VC? Email in my profile.
justicezyx 6y ago
What organization you represent? I'd like to share this strong stance openly. I fully support both sides to openly discuss their standings and rationale, not the "cancelling" tactics that suffocates constructive debates.
- threatofrain 6y ago

wumaodang 6y ago

In DC, it was a riot, but in Hong Kong it was merely a protest, right? And only in one of those cities were there gasoline bombs thrown on the street.

Quillbert182 6y ago
In Hong Kong it was a revolution. They weren't fighting for ambiguous policy change, they were fighting for independence.
- wumaodang 6y ago
  If you listen to them, they say they're not separatists... But if they were that's all the more reason for there to be criminal penalties for their actions. And you better hope the same happens in the US when the FBI goes after the "Boogaloo Boys."
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    You need to get recalibrated. 25% of the people of HK were involved in protests in some form or the other. Boogaloo Boys do not consist of 80 million US citizens. They're a fringe group trying to be a militia. HK citizens were violent because their voices were not heard, they're not a militia, nor are they fighting to oppress and upend democracy, they're fighting for the exact opposite.
    - HKH2 6y ago
      The people who were violent were definitely nowhere near 25%, most probably not even 5%. You can see in video after video that they're mostly young people (20s), and their message was "burn with us" [1]. Carrie Lam withdrew the bill and that still wasn't enough for them. Realistically, they were never going to get the 5 demands met, and it was clear they wanted to incite police violence. There were plenty of people, especially those who were a bit older and those who owned small businesses who wished they would go away, and the national security law has guaranteed that. I know HK culture is quite separate from Mainland culture in quite a few aspects, but I can't see how any of the violence has helped. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lam_chau_(doctrine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lam_chau_(doctrine)

tablespoon 6y ago

I've been on a bit of an youtube archiving kick lately. Does anyone know of a good list of youtube videos that were uploaded during the protests (e.g. documenting the protest, police brutality, etc)? I'm probably too late to the party though, since I understand a lot of protesters took down their social media uploads in support of the protests after the national security law was enacted.

chinathrow1029 6y ago
Here’s a good place to start: https://www.truth-hk.com/violences/categories/violence https://www.truth-hk.com/violences/categories/violence
- tablespoon 6y ago
  Nice troll.
philsnow 6y ago
https://imgur.com/user/SavingHongKong https://imgur.com/user/SavingHongKong has a lot, not just of the protests, though.

eric_b 6y ago

In the US I've been sadly unsurprised by how little coverage Hong Kong has gotten recently. Our politicians are a disgrace. They scream about democracy when a bunch of hooligans riot at the Capitol, but when a human-rights defiling government legitimately suppresses democracy for 7M people, they stay silent. They stay silent on organ harvesting, on the quasi-genocide of the Uighurs, and any number of other human rights abuses. If the politicians, particularly those on the left, had an ounce of principle and even attempted to walk their talk, they would be leading the charge against China at every turn. Here is a chance to step up for human rights and democracy in a big way, and it's crickets from our leaders.

nafizh 6y ago

There is no doubt in my mind that Taiwan is the next target unless another axis of power comes to its aid. It's only a matter of time and the success in HK would have only bolstered CCP's conviction. Because China is hosting the winter Olympics, I don't think they will do anything of this scale before that.

wumaodang 6y ago
There are certainly a lot of commentators predicting that some kind of military conflict will happen over Taiwan in the next decade. If it happens, it'll be the closest we get to World War III, so hopefully cooler heads will prevail.

yeetman21 6y ago

can we please not turn this place into r*ddit?

osynavets 6y ago

Reminds me about another film with the same theme: winter on fire. Film about protests in my own country Ukraine. Horrible events

lovelyviking 6y ago
Winter on Fire | 'Filming on the Front Lines' Featurette | Netflix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m76G2K19X8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m76G2K19X8

lovelyviking 6y ago

One more film(VR). One more democracy under attack by former communists. Dnipro – outpost of Ukraine - VR version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AS1cOAm6gI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AS1cOAm6gI This one is one step further - with millitary forces and war. Can those communists be former really ...

HenryBemis 6y ago

Uuuffff.. HK is 'dead in the water'. UK abandoned HK, creating a vacuum, leaving the door open to China to step in and take over; and nobody wants to risk stepping-in to block China from absorbing HK. China will (literally) fight anyone who will dare step their foot in HK to 'guarantee' its independence. I don't believe anyone is able to stand up to China, apart from Russia or USA. And neither are willing to go to war for HK. It's someone else's problem. Worse case scenario when the transition is complete, HK will die as a global financial centre, and its big-banks operations will move to a more USA-friendly place. Poor HK-ers could as well replace their flag. It's a pity, but such is the luck of the ant in front of a elephant.

hi41 6y ago

The rioters set fire to the bank. How is this okay. Regular people like you and I work at the bank and now their livelihoods could be lost. Violence begets more violence. I cannot sympathize with the rioters.