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Last month they even managed to fully open parts of the modem, and do calls without the closed blob for the firmware! https://twitter.com/biktorgj/status/13572

Last month they even managed to fully open parts of the modem, and do calls without the closed blob for the firmware! https://twitter.com/biktorgj/status/1357217053745250304 https://twitter.com/biktorgj/status/1357217053745250304 (edit: caveat: they might not be able to actually ship the firmware since laws on this are very strict basically everywhere) The app store(s) is a bit of a problem, but in time it might be solved. Not a big problem for me.... But I'd also like to see android compatibility. Multiple banks now basically require you to have an android app. Unfortunately that might also require better specs, since sideloading an entire android might take significant RAM :( Still, kudos to pine64 devs for the openness of all of their projects! IMHO even the raspy is not as open, even if it might have better benchs

swiley 6y ago
I hope the pinephone never has app stores. The "work with the community to merge your software into the repo" model is much better for things that actually help people. Apple's AppStore is best for extracting money from people while siloing their data.
- viro 6y ago
  This is so divorced from reality I don't know where to start. There is effectively no difference between "apt install widget-a" and installing it from a "App Store" other than the App Store option lets the dev feed his family if he needs to to. at least from a user stand point.
  - swiley 6y ago
    Now many individual app developers are feeding their family with app store installs vs the individual OSS developers doing the same?
  - jascii 6y ago
    One could argue that it is exactly this financial incentive that causes all the mislabeled useless apps on the app stores.
    - viro 6y ago
      >financial incentive ? ... financial incentives is the motivation for most labor.
      - anoncake 6y ago
        Financial incentives redirect labour from useful to profitable activities.
        viro 6y ago
        You mean labor is directed towards actions that produce more value than simply the labor put into them. Odd, its like you think that's a bad thing.
        anoncake 6y ago
        That is literally the opposite of what I wrote.
        marcus_holmes 6y ago
        I think this comes down to whether you agree that money == value, and that value == utility (i.e. that people will pay for things that they find useful)
        jascii 6y ago
        That statement only holds if you only define "value" as financial gain. I would consider that a dangerous simplification.
        aidenn0 6y ago
        Since much of monetary value is related to scarcity, labor is directed to reduce scarcity, not to actions that produce social value. The pool of people who are capable of collecting garbage is non-scarce, so the price for labor is relatively small compared to the social value it produces. Advertising is so well rewarded because the attention of consumers is a very scarce resource, so companies put massive amounts of money into capturing some of that.
  - ohmeego 6y ago
    In fact with the last go round of Linux phones(Nokia N900/N9), the app store was just a gui in front of apt.
- fsflover 6y ago
  There is nothing wrong with App Stores. See: F-Droid and GNU/Linux repositories. The problem is in multinational monopolies.
  - swiley 6y ago
    The GNU/Linux repos work exactly the way I described in my post. Fdroid probably does too but I haven't looked closely at it.
    - slim 6y ago
      It mostly works as you described + the app lets you add any repository.
  - viro 6y ago
    People use iOS/iPhones BECAUSE of how tightly controlled the App Store is. It's like Atari vs Nintendo. If I wanted pure "freedom" I would have gotten an android, since they have at least fixed their performance issues now.
    - grey_earthling 6y ago
      The best of both worlds is possible. I can install $StrictGNULinuxDistro with very strict policies about software freedom and quality and so on; and then if I want to, I can add Flathub, $OtherFlatpakRepo and/or $ThirdPartyDebOrRpmOrWhateverRepo as well. Gatekeeping may be a feature or a bug depending on your opinion, but we don't all have to have the same priorities for our software repos, because we can each choose which repos we use.
      - imwillofficial 6y ago
        Yeah because flatpacks are a joy to use. /sarc The older I get, the less time I have to fumble around with crappy user interfaces on half assed software. I’m far more willing to pay, or even used closed source software because it gets the job done, and sparks joy.
    - 6y ago
- jordache 6y ago
  > The "work with the community to merge your software into the repo" model is much better for things that actually help people. So you ratchet up the friction for entry, that helps devs? Say what you want about the app store, but across all the devs for iOS, how many would go through the trouble of self distributing their product? Marketing, infrastructure, payment system etc... ? The app store is a tremendously low friction way for market penetration. Sure, we may need to calibrate the revenue sharing arrangement. However the "merge your software into the repo" as an either/or alternative is laughable.
  - ddevault 6y ago
    The benefits go both ways: the community also reaches out to the developers. A lot of software is added to repos without any input from the devs. The plain truth of the matter is that commercial app stores are malware distributors, and community repositories are not. The commercial app store model does not work, at least not for the user. Also: not all software is commercial, and not everyone wants their phones commercialized. Your business model is often simply not welcome on the platform. You're not entitled to make money. If we want a platform without commercial software incentives, that's our business, not yours.
    - jordache 6y ago
      > not everyone wants their phones commercialized. While your statement is technically correct, the number of users falling into that category, and would go the extra effort to ensure a non-commercialized day to day phone is usable, is infinitesimally small. Most users embrace the convenience associated with the commercial solution. This will be a tiny niche phone
      - ddevault 6y ago
        >This will be a tiny niche phone Yes. So what?
        imwillofficial 6y ago
- MartijnBraam 6y ago
  Oh yeah people really want it to be a second android/ios, it's quite annoying
fallat 6y ago
There are so many issues I see blocked by banks for reason or another. This is another one I never thought of. The other big one is existing loans preventing cryptocurrency adoption.
seba_dos1 6y ago
> Last month they even managed to fully open parts of the modem, and do calls without the closed blob for the firmware! That's not true - what's freed is the GNU/Linux part of the modem that comes from Quectel, which is just an interface on top of Qualcomm's proprietary firmware which does the real work. This is similar to unlocking a proprietary Android phone with an integrated modem and replacing its UI, while the firmware stays as closed as it was. This is a great development nevertheless, but such mischaracterization doesn't do anyone any good.
dheera 6y ago
> they might not be able to actually ship the firmware Have someone secretly put it on the Ethereum blockchain? There will be literally no way to delete it after that.
megous 6y ago
To clarify, 4G modem modules (like the one in PinePhone) are usually based on stripped down smartphone SoCs, running Linux on ARM + a huge multi-milion lines FW blobs running on some DSP, that's actually implementing most of the functionality you expect from the modem. So what this means is that PinePhone is basically a smartphone withing smartphone, and what's opensourced is the Linux kernel running on the modem's SoC. It's very nice, and allows you some more control (now you get two Linux capable SoCs in one phone that you can fully use for whatever you want, which is quite interesting!), but the actual modem part is as blobby and impenetrable as ever.
- simfree 6y ago
  Yes, but with the Quectel EC25 modem used the blobs are isolated on the modem itself, your device does not need to load any binary blobs to bring up a usable cellular connection.
  - megous 6y ago
    The point is that you can't tinker with the modem, fix issues, implement new features, or remove misfeatures introduced by Quectel, if you have to use the blob. Where the blob is running is maybe only relevant to how much control it has over the rest of the system.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
L29Ah 6y ago
> Multiple banks now basically require you to have an android app. It's nice that you can boycott them and use those that don't impose arbitrary technological restrictions on you, right?

swiley 6y ago

I hope the pinephone never has app stores. The "work with the community to merge your software into the repo" model is much better for things that actually help people. Apple's AppStore is best for extracting money from people while siloing their data.

viro 6y ago
This is so divorced from reality I don't know where to start. There is effectively no difference between "apt install widget-a" and installing it from a "App Store" other than the App Store option lets the dev feed his family if he needs to to. at least from a user stand point.
- swiley 6y ago
  Now many individual app developers are feeding their family with app store installs vs the individual OSS developers doing the same?
- jascii 6y ago
  One could argue that it is exactly this financial incentive that causes all the mislabeled useless apps on the app stores.
  - viro 6y ago
    >financial incentive ? ... financial incentives is the motivation for most labor.
    - anoncake 6y ago
      Financial incentives redirect labour from useful to profitable activities.
      - viro 6y ago
        You mean labor is directed towards actions that produce more value than simply the labor put into them. Odd, its like you think that's a bad thing.
        anoncake 6y ago
        That is literally the opposite of what I wrote.
        marcus_holmes 6y ago
        I think this comes down to whether you agree that money == value, and that value == utility (i.e. that people will pay for things that they find useful)
        jascii 6y ago
        That statement only holds if you only define "value" as financial gain. I would consider that a dangerous simplification.
        aidenn0 6y ago
        Since much of monetary value is related to scarcity, labor is directed to reduce scarcity, not to actions that produce social value. The pool of people who are capable of collecting garbage is non-scarce, so the price for labor is relatively small compared to the social value it produces. Advertising is so well rewarded because the attention of consumers is a very scarce resource, so companies put massive amounts of money into capturing some of that.
- ohmeego 6y ago
  In fact with the last go round of Linux phones(Nokia N900/N9), the app store was just a gui in front of apt.
fsflover 6y ago
There is nothing wrong with App Stores. See: F-Droid and GNU/Linux repositories. The problem is in multinational monopolies.
- swiley 6y ago
  The GNU/Linux repos work exactly the way I described in my post. Fdroid probably does too but I haven't looked closely at it.
  - slim 6y ago
    It mostly works as you described + the app lets you add any repository.
- viro 6y ago
  People use iOS/iPhones BECAUSE of how tightly controlled the App Store is. It's like Atari vs Nintendo. If I wanted pure "freedom" I would have gotten an android, since they have at least fixed their performance issues now.
  - grey_earthling 6y ago
    The best of both worlds is possible. I can install $StrictGNULinuxDistro with very strict policies about software freedom and quality and so on; and then if I want to, I can add Flathub, $OtherFlatpakRepo and/or $ThirdPartyDebOrRpmOrWhateverRepo as well. Gatekeeping may be a feature or a bug depending on your opinion, but we don't all have to have the same priorities for our software repos, because we can each choose which repos we use.
    - imwillofficial 6y ago
      Yeah because flatpacks are a joy to use. /sarc The older I get, the less time I have to fumble around with crappy user interfaces on half assed software. I’m far more willing to pay, or even used closed source software because it gets the job done, and sparks joy.
  - 6y ago
jordache 6y ago
> The "work with the community to merge your software into the repo" model is much better for things that actually help people. So you ratchet up the friction for entry, that helps devs? Say what you want about the app store, but across all the devs for iOS, how many would go through the trouble of self distributing their product? Marketing, infrastructure, payment system etc... ? The app store is a tremendously low friction way for market penetration. Sure, we may need to calibrate the revenue sharing arrangement. However the "merge your software into the repo" as an either/or alternative is laughable.
- ddevault 6y ago
  The benefits go both ways: the community also reaches out to the developers. A lot of software is added to repos without any input from the devs. The plain truth of the matter is that commercial app stores are malware distributors, and community repositories are not. The commercial app store model does not work, at least not for the user. Also: not all software is commercial, and not everyone wants their phones commercialized. Your business model is often simply not welcome on the platform. You're not entitled to make money. If we want a platform without commercial software incentives, that's our business, not yours.
  - jordache 6y ago
    > not everyone wants their phones commercialized. While your statement is technically correct, the number of users falling into that category, and would go the extra effort to ensure a non-commercialized day to day phone is usable, is infinitesimally small. Most users embrace the convenience associated with the commercial solution. This will be a tiny niche phone
    - ddevault 6y ago
      >This will be a tiny niche phone Yes. So what?
      - imwillofficial 6y ago
MartijnBraam 6y ago
Oh yeah people really want it to be a second android/ios, it's quite annoying

fallat 6y ago

There are so many issues I see blocked by banks for reason or another. This is another one I never thought of. The other big one is existing loans preventing cryptocurrency adoption.

seba_dos1 6y ago

> Last month they even managed to fully open parts of the modem, and do calls without the closed blob for the firmware! That's not true - what's freed is the GNU/Linux part of the modem that comes from Quectel, which is just an interface on top of Qualcomm's proprietary firmware which does the real work. This is similar to unlocking a proprietary Android phone with an integrated modem and replacing its UI, while the firmware stays as closed as it was. This is a great development nevertheless, but such mischaracterization doesn't do anyone any good.

dheera 6y ago

> they might not be able to actually ship the firmware Have someone secretly put it on the Ethereum blockchain? There will be literally no way to delete it after that.

megous 6y ago

To clarify, 4G modem modules (like the one in PinePhone) are usually based on stripped down smartphone SoCs, running Linux on ARM + a huge multi-milion lines FW blobs running on some DSP, that's actually implementing most of the functionality you expect from the modem. So what this means is that PinePhone is basically a smartphone withing smartphone, and what's opensourced is the Linux kernel running on the modem's SoC. It's very nice, and allows you some more control (now you get two Linux capable SoCs in one phone that you can fully use for whatever you want, which is quite interesting!), but the actual modem part is as blobby and impenetrable as ever.

simfree 6y ago
Yes, but with the Quectel EC25 modem used the blobs are isolated on the modem itself, your device does not need to load any binary blobs to bring up a usable cellular connection.
- megous 6y ago
  The point is that you can't tinker with the modem, fix issues, implement new features, or remove misfeatures introduced by Quectel, if you have to use the blob. Where the blob is running is maybe only relevant to how much control it has over the rest of the system.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

L29Ah 6y ago

> Multiple banks now basically require you to have an android app. It's nice that you can boycott them and use those that don't impose arbitrary technological restrictions on you, right?