7 ms·

RMS Support Letter

85 points by milanandreew 6y ago

dvz 6y ago
Yeah! I've signed it!
- grlass 6y ago
  why?
  - foobar33333 6y ago
    Because they support rms obviously.
    - drcongo 6y ago
      I don't think rms would approve of you calling someone "they".
  - dvz 6y ago
    Because he is an icon of free software and a permanent lead of the community
guipsp 6y ago
Even if you excuse his terrible personal opinions and his egregious personal hygiene, you cannot excuse his behaviour, specially around women. https://twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1173637138413318144?s=19 https://twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1173637138413318144?s...
- pityJuke 6y ago
  What is annoying is the original open letter failed to go into depth about all this. I'd heard rumblings about this around the original time he was removed from various positions, but the hard transcripts here really solidify the opinion RMS is a bit of a creep. Like, "pleasure cards"? Come on dude.
  - movaps 6y ago
    He was told off for asking people out. His (an autistic man keep in mind) solution was "pleasure cards", as opposed to business cards. It's a very tame innuendo which suffers from outdated language. People don't use the word "pleasure" casually today. Here's a picture of one of said cards - how shocking: https://twitter.com/bella_velo/status/1172524864193945603/photo/1 https://twitter.com/bella_velo/status/1172524864193945603/ph...
    - nlpguide 6y ago
      I thought it was a pun on the silly question asked in old movies when you enter a country: "Business or pleasure?". RMS hates business and renames everything, so it's a pleasure card. I wonder if he even intended innuendo other than being anti-business.
- thefz 6y ago
  There is already a mechanism in place if Stallman has infringed any law, and it is not Twitter threads. The mere disliking of man's behavior does not constitute ground for his harassment in turn. Hitting on women is no crime. That linked thread is nothing but a person disagreeing with RMS's fringiest opinions. Stop with the empty mobbing of people just because you do not agree with them.
  - guipsp 6y ago
    The standard on public behavior doesn't stop at what's legal or not. At least I would hope so.
    - thefz 6y ago
      Yet you don't get a man to abdicate from a life's work because some things he said in the past may get on someone's nerves. Especially with a civil rights fighter and advocate like RMS you have to weigh in what he has done too.
    - movaps 6y ago
      I assume MIT has a department which handles sexual harassment incidents. Why has none of this gone through proper channels if it's so egregious?
- Bancakes 6y ago
  You didn't actually post any evidence of allegedly inexcusable behaviour around women.
  - drivingmenuts 6y ago
    Did you read the Twitter thread? It cited examples of his quite objectionable opinions. Granted, he might have thoroughly recanted those statements, but they are always going to be baggage that the FSF is going to be stuck defending, which is not part of their mission. Surely, there are other people who made better decisions about what is defensible and what is not.
    - Bancakes 6y ago
      >objectionable Things taken out of context, at worst. At best, personal opinions. >FSF is going to be stuck defending From what? Outrage culture? A self-made problem? FSF is about software and software licenses, not blogposting and whataboutism. >Surely, No, there is not one person as qualified on free software as RMS and Torvalds, for as long as those two are alive. It's unacceptable that a non-engineer takes the lead in FSF, a software engineering oriented organisation. Maybe it'll be fine for IBM, Oracle or other profit and customer satisfaction oriented businesses to have a PR person.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > FSF is about software and software licenses Like all advocacy organizations, the FSF is mostly about PR. “Software and software licenses” are the target area of impact.
      - drivingmenuts 6y ago
        I suggest you re-read that thread. The examples cited are his opinions. The FSF is going to be stuck defending him now now, regardless if it’s in their mission or not. Maybe not every press conference but enough to be a distraction at best, no matter the source. I wouldn’t suggest a non-engineer for a lead position in the FSF, but I would suggest they look to someone who hasn’t held such polarizing and objectionable opinions on such a polarizing topic.
cholmon 6y ago
Is there any objective context here? What has RMS said, what are the attacks? I assume there are also fair, clear-headed criticisms of what he has said and how he said it.
- smitty1e 6y ago
  Do not mistake any of this friction for rational discussion. Cancel culture is about bullying and vulgar displays of power.
- guipsp 6y ago
  This may answer your questions https://twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1173637138413318144 https://twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1173637138413318144
  - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
    This was debated ad nauseam. First, regarding pedophilia, he was quoting a study published by The Guardian. Second, he backed dawn from his position already several years ago. Now, imagine you quoted someone saying something controversial twenty years ago, and then apologized for it. And now someone starts a Twitter thread in a mass attack to find all your possible flaws as a human being. It's just sick.
bhaak 6y ago
What are the people having signed this letter back in 2019 do now? https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-pr... I know what I would do if the organization I do free work for disregards my opinion in such a blatant way. I would just walk away. I wonder how many will do this?
batat 6y ago
People who are against bullying of Richard Stallman exists too! And there are lot of them - quiet developers, incapable of social interaction. We are not reading Twitter 24/7, we are not speakers nor evangelists. We write commit messages, not tweets. We are doing things, not loud manifestos. And all powers currently is seized by a loud crowd who believe that person should be judged by his words, not his deeds. They believe that "enough words, show me the code" is a meritocracy. If you fear that your signature in RMS Support letter open letter may have negative consequences for your career, then just write some support words to info@fsf.org and directors@fsf.org, this is fine too!
- guipsp 6y ago
  No one is bullying RMS, they are holding him accountable for his behavior. >And all powers currently is seized by a loud crowd who believe that person should be judged by his words, not his deeds. His deeds actually make people (specially woman) feel unsafe in the community.
  - Bancakes 6y ago
    Can you give me a list of such women?
    - guipsp 6y ago
      I can link you some examples, but a complete list is impossible. In the middle of this article: https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88 https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix...
      - Bancakes 6y ago
        Anything more than unverifiable claims from 30 years ago? And even then, how is sleeping on a mattress oppressive? I also sleep on a mattress. I've also asked girls out when I was young, and been declined (once). That is some twisted mythos regarding RMS. All his online, TV, and keynote appearances have proven him to be a misunderstood and harmless tech expert. What is your experience from speaking to him personally?
milanandreew 6y ago
He's probably not the ideal public figurehead you'd want for the FSF, you can make a point that it'd be good if they chose someone less prone to creating controversies for the role, but frankly, the arguments in that letter range from inaccurate representations to complete lies, and no one should get cancelled for that.
ivanstegic 6y ago
It’s pretty crazy that there are still people out there who can defend RMS for his contributions but are perfectly capable of conveniently IGNORING his vile comments about women, Epstein and related accusations while spouting “bullying” and “cancel culture.”
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
  Could you please quote his "vile comments" about Epstein?
  - ivanstegic 6y ago
    Did you just miss September 2019? Refresh your memory: https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/17/computer-scientist-richard-stallman-resigns-mit-after-comments-about-epstein-scandal/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/17/computer...
    - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
      I remember it very well. Please include his quote because I don't remember anything vile in it. I do remember though how several media outlets misquoted him ("Stallman defends Epstein", "Stallman describes the victim as 'entirely willing'") attributing to him the words he never said. Many of these still run this false story, with no correction nor apology.
      - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
        The very fact that instead of a reply I receive downvotes is a good summary of the general situation.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        galactus 6y ago
        Exactly. They refuse to accept that what was said about Stallman was false. It's exactly the same attitude Trump has about truth: it doesn't matter.
parrellel 6y ago
RMS, a disgusting person who is often right about software, and built some good stuff.
- batat 6y ago
  Yeah, dead-on. Like "The right to be rude"[0], a year old events when Eric S. Raymond - co-founder of OSI - was kicked off from the OSI mailing list. (Back then someone suggested adding a "we-don't-like-them" clause to Free licenses which prohibits the use of Free software by "bad people or bad companies" (e.g. the US Migration Service for its policy towards migrants). ESR pointed out a violation of paragraphs 5 and 6 of the Open Source Definition: "No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups", "No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor" in his usual way of communicating and... Well, you know how it's ended up) [0] http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=8609 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=8609
skyzyx 6y ago
“Bullying” FSF is free to choose to bring RMS back. Likewise, people and organizations are free to choose to neither fund nor support the FSF as a result. It cuts both ways.
tryonenow 6y ago
Why is this flagged? Even if it's controversial, it's a fault line that begs discussion, with direct and indirect implications for the vast majority of HN users.

RMS Support Letter

85 points by milanandreew 6y ago

dvz 6y ago

Yeah! I've signed it!

grlass 6y ago
why?
- foobar33333 6y ago
  Because they support rms obviously.
  - drcongo 6y ago
    I don't think rms would approve of you calling someone "they".
- dvz 6y ago
  Because he is an icon of free software and a permanent lead of the community

guipsp 6y ago

Even if you excuse his terrible personal opinions and his egregious personal hygiene, you cannot excuse his behaviour, specially around women. https://twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1173637138413318144?s=19 https://twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1173637138413318144?s...

pityJuke 6y ago
What is annoying is the original open letter failed to go into depth about all this. I'd heard rumblings about this around the original time he was removed from various positions, but the hard transcripts here really solidify the opinion RMS is a bit of a creep. Like, "pleasure cards"? Come on dude.
- movaps 6y ago
  He was told off for asking people out. His (an autistic man keep in mind) solution was "pleasure cards", as opposed to business cards. It's a very tame innuendo which suffers from outdated language. People don't use the word "pleasure" casually today. Here's a picture of one of said cards - how shocking: https://twitter.com/bella_velo/status/1172524864193945603/photo/1 https://twitter.com/bella_velo/status/1172524864193945603/ph...
  - nlpguide 6y ago
    I thought it was a pun on the silly question asked in old movies when you enter a country: "Business or pleasure?". RMS hates business and renames everything, so it's a pleasure card. I wonder if he even intended innuendo other than being anti-business.
thefz 6y ago
There is already a mechanism in place if Stallman has infringed any law, and it is not Twitter threads. The mere disliking of man's behavior does not constitute ground for his harassment in turn. Hitting on women is no crime. That linked thread is nothing but a person disagreeing with RMS's fringiest opinions. Stop with the empty mobbing of people just because you do not agree with them.
- guipsp 6y ago
  The standard on public behavior doesn't stop at what's legal or not. At least I would hope so.
  - thefz 6y ago
    Yet you don't get a man to abdicate from a life's work because some things he said in the past may get on someone's nerves. Especially with a civil rights fighter and advocate like RMS you have to weigh in what he has done too.
  - movaps 6y ago
    I assume MIT has a department which handles sexual harassment incidents. Why has none of this gone through proper channels if it's so egregious?
Bancakes 6y ago
You didn't actually post any evidence of allegedly inexcusable behaviour around women.
- drivingmenuts 6y ago
  Did you read the Twitter thread? It cited examples of his quite objectionable opinions. Granted, he might have thoroughly recanted those statements, but they are always going to be baggage that the FSF is going to be stuck defending, which is not part of their mission. Surely, there are other people who made better decisions about what is defensible and what is not.
  - Bancakes 6y ago
    >objectionable Things taken out of context, at worst. At best, personal opinions. >FSF is going to be stuck defending From what? Outrage culture? A self-made problem? FSF is about software and software licenses, not blogposting and whataboutism. >Surely, No, there is not one person as qualified on free software as RMS and Torvalds, for as long as those two are alive. It's unacceptable that a non-engineer takes the lead in FSF, a software engineering oriented organisation. Maybe it'll be fine for IBM, Oracle or other profit and customer satisfaction oriented businesses to have a PR person.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > FSF is about software and software licenses Like all advocacy organizations, the FSF is mostly about PR. “Software and software licenses” are the target area of impact.
    - drivingmenuts 6y ago
      I suggest you re-read that thread. The examples cited are his opinions. The FSF is going to be stuck defending him now now, regardless if it’s in their mission or not. Maybe not every press conference but enough to be a distraction at best, no matter the source. I wouldn’t suggest a non-engineer for a lead position in the FSF, but I would suggest they look to someone who hasn’t held such polarizing and objectionable opinions on such a polarizing topic.

cholmon 6y ago

Is there any objective context here? What has RMS said, what are the attacks? I assume there are also fair, clear-headed criticisms of what he has said and how he said it.

smitty1e 6y ago
Do not mistake any of this friction for rational discussion. Cancel culture is about bullying and vulgar displays of power.
guipsp 6y ago
This may answer your questions https://twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1173637138413318144 https://twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1173637138413318144
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
  This was debated ad nauseam. First, regarding pedophilia, he was quoting a study published by The Guardian. Second, he backed dawn from his position already several years ago. Now, imagine you quoted someone saying something controversial twenty years ago, and then apologized for it. And now someone starts a Twitter thread in a mass attack to find all your possible flaws as a human being. It's just sick.

bhaak 6y ago

What are the people having signed this letter back in 2019 do now? https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-pr... I know what I would do if the organization I do free work for disregards my opinion in such a blatant way. I would just walk away. I wonder how many will do this?

batat 6y ago

People who are against bullying of Richard Stallman exists too! And there are lot of them - quiet developers, incapable of social interaction. We are not reading Twitter 24/7, we are not speakers nor evangelists. We write commit messages, not tweets. We are doing things, not loud manifestos. And all powers currently is seized by a loud crowd who believe that person should be judged by his words, not his deeds. They believe that "enough words, show me the code" is a meritocracy. If you fear that your signature in RMS Support letter open letter may have negative consequences for your career, then just write some support words to info@fsf.org and directors@fsf.org, this is fine too!

guipsp 6y ago
No one is bullying RMS, they are holding him accountable for his behavior. >And all powers currently is seized by a loud crowd who believe that person should be judged by his words, not his deeds. His deeds actually make people (specially woman) feel unsafe in the community.
- Bancakes 6y ago
  Can you give me a list of such women?
  - guipsp 6y ago
    I can link you some examples, but a complete list is impossible. In the middle of this article: https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88 https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix...
    - Bancakes 6y ago
      Anything more than unverifiable claims from 30 years ago? And even then, how is sleeping on a mattress oppressive? I also sleep on a mattress. I've also asked girls out when I was young, and been declined (once). That is some twisted mythos regarding RMS. All his online, TV, and keynote appearances have proven him to be a misunderstood and harmless tech expert. What is your experience from speaking to him personally?

milanandreew 6y ago

He's probably not the ideal public figurehead you'd want for the FSF, you can make a point that it'd be good if they chose someone less prone to creating controversies for the role, but frankly, the arguments in that letter range from inaccurate representations to complete lies, and no one should get cancelled for that.

ivanstegic 6y ago

It’s pretty crazy that there are still people out there who can defend RMS for his contributions but are perfectly capable of conveniently IGNORING his vile comments about women, Epstein and related accusations while spouting “bullying” and “cancel culture.”

dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
Could you please quote his "vile comments" about Epstein?
- ivanstegic 6y ago
  Did you just miss September 2019? Refresh your memory: https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/17/computer-scientist-richard-stallman-resigns-mit-after-comments-about-epstein-scandal/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/17/computer...
  - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
    I remember it very well. Please include his quote because I don't remember anything vile in it. I do remember though how several media outlets misquoted him ("Stallman defends Epstein", "Stallman describes the victim as 'entirely willing'") attributing to him the words he never said. Many of these still run this false story, with no correction nor apology.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
      The very fact that instead of a reply I receive downvotes is a good summary of the general situation.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - galactus 6y ago
        Exactly. They refuse to accept that what was said about Stallman was false. It's exactly the same attitude Trump has about truth: it doesn't matter.

parrellel 6y ago

RMS, a disgusting person who is often right about software, and built some good stuff.

batat 6y ago
Yeah, dead-on. Like "The right to be rude"[0], a year old events when Eric S. Raymond - co-founder of OSI - was kicked off from the OSI mailing list. (Back then someone suggested adding a "we-don't-like-them" clause to Free licenses which prohibits the use of Free software by "bad people or bad companies" (e.g. the US Migration Service for its policy towards migrants). ESR pointed out a violation of paragraphs 5 and 6 of the Open Source Definition: "No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups", "No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor" in his usual way of communicating and... Well, you know how it's ended up) [0] http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=8609 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=8609

skyzyx 6y ago

“Bullying” FSF is free to choose to bring RMS back. Likewise, people and organizations are free to choose to neither fund nor support the FSF as a result. It cuts both ways.

tryonenow 6y ago

Why is this flagged? Even if it's controversial, it's a fault line that begs discussion, with direct and indirect implications for the vast majority of HN users.