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Oh, this again. This law was written to give code enforcement a cudgel against unlicensed repair shops. All the auto enthusiast blogs and forums immediately lo

Oh, this again. This law was written to give code enforcement a cudgel against unlicensed repair shops. All the auto enthusiast blogs and forums immediately lost their minds, but there hasn't been a sweep of the neighborhoods with officers asking to look inside of your garage for uncommon tools. The one complaint I could find online [1] was from a dude whose handle was "nimblemotorsports" and he said he had a car lift on his property (but it hadn't been set up yet). [2] There's plenty of room for grousing about poorly written laws, but this law has lots of other equally poorly written laws across the country to keep it company. Sacramento county isn't forbidding you from putting shiny new headers on your hot rod in your own garage. [1]: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/it-illegal-do-major-repairs-your-car-your-garage-s/155378/page1/ https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/it-illegal-do-ma... [2]: It took only a little more effort using the nimblemotorsports name to get an idea of why his neighbors might completely reasonably be getting irritated enough to call code enforcement.

watwut 6y ago
I dont think this is as strong defense of that law as you think. It still makes fixing car or geeking on car punisheable. It still is absurd limitation of what I would expect to be a freedom.
OldManAndTheCpp 6y ago
Making laws that target personal liberties in the hopes that they will be selectively applied does not increase justice.
ziftface 6y ago
I'm sorry but this is difficult to believe. The site says that it's unlawful to do "minor vehicle repair [...] Using tools not normally found in a residence". If it was just a zoning law, why does it have to include that stipulation? I've seen plenty of people who own tools "not normally found in a residence". It's hard to guess exactly what the authors' intentions were, but it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone to conclude that there were other motives besides just cracking down on illegal auto shops.
- thaumaturgy 6y ago
  Well, the law will be two years old soon. There's one local news article about it where the county's PIO clarified the county's intention [1]. Aside from that, alllllll of these homeowners innocently working on their cars in their own garages and yards around the county and getting hit with hundreds and hundreds of dollars in fines have resulted in... exactly zero other local news coverage that I can find. Every other search result about this thing is some motoring site where the internet commenters are absolutely certain that this is yet another example of draconian liberal legislative overreach and just nobody can really do anything on their own property anymore and it's all just so unfair... Again, I'm expressly not defending the law as it's written, but if the letter of every bad law was to be applied equally to everyone in the same instant, there would not be a single free person anywhere in the country. Like all the others, this one is being applied selectively. [1]: Warning: really obnoxious autoplay videos, because every local news site is on a headlong rush to the bottom of the pit of asshole design. https://www.abc10.com/article/entertainment/television/programs/why-guy-question/why-guy-why-cant-i-work-on-my-car-outside-of-my-house-in-sacramento-county/103-5de49285-3066-4f1f-a38e-4d92b43504bc https://www.abc10.com/article/entertainment/television/progr...
  - TeeMassive 6y ago
    > Well, the law will be two years old soon. There's one local news article about it where the county's PIO clarified the county's intention [1]. Aside from that, alllllll of these homeowners innocently working on their cars in their own garages and yards around the county and getting hit with hundreds and hundreds of dollars in fines have resulted in... exactly zero other local news coverage that I can find. Big cities with traffic problem enact this kind of laws to discourage personal car ownership. Sure, just because now it's not actively reported as enforced doesn't mean it won't be in the future, and it wouldn't be the first time where the enactment and the enforcement of a low separated in time to make the pill easier to swallow.
    - giantg2 6y ago
      Exactly. If they have to clarify it in some press release, then they should be amending the ordinance so that it is clear. Unfortunately, the system is lazy. Politicians don't bother to amend laws when these issues arises, police can use their "professional discretion" to enforce or not enforce a law (which leads to unequal enforcement), and the courts tend to "interpret" laws in ways that don't make sense (partially because of the politicians I mentioned earlier, but also a misapplication of statutory construction rules and lenity).
ur-whale 6y ago
> a cudgel against unlicensed repair shops A terrible thing in itself.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
This is a very, very, very naive take. Laws like this exist to only be enforced as needed to screw people as needed. Of course there is not going to be a big enforcement push because that's not the point. The point is to give busybodies a means to screw their neighbors under color of law.
ballenf 6y ago
Why not just require that a car being worked on is registered to an owner at the address? edit: All good points in response. I'm convinced that there is no point in trying to tune the wording of a bad law.
- Retric 6y ago
  Because working on a family members or friends car isn’t the same thing as running an unlicensed repair shop.
- 29083011397778 6y ago
  Because I did oil changes at my grandparents house when I was younger. I didn't live there, but there was space, tooling, help, breakfast, and an excuse to visit afterwards. "Politicians are idiots, the law should be X" is a trope, but finding a wording that doesn't run afoul of edge cases is very, very, difficult, even before lobbying and perverse incentives make things worse. Note I'm not saying this law was made in good faith, but starting an argument from an assumption of ignorance instead of malice seems more likely to change people's opinion in your favour.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Because "unlicensed shops" is a red herring. They're trying to make life hard on the guy that owns a bunch of beater cars and turns his own wrenches. They're basically saying you have to be rich enough to do it indoors and dodge enforcement or you should GTFO because we don't want you here.
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patagonia 6y ago
Your defense is a combination of “what about” other poorly written laws and “but it’s not enforced”. I don’t have enough time this morning to explain why these are dangerous and ignorant arguments...
int_19h 6y ago
Are you saying that the law is specifically designed to be selectively applied, with the enforcement authorities more or less arbitrarily deciding what does and what doesn't warrant a crackdown? But that's exactly the kind of law that tends to be enforced in ways that manifest various majority biases in society.
spaetzleesser 6y ago
"but there hasn't been a sweep of the neighborhoods with officers asking to look inside of your garage for uncommon tools." So now we have another set of laws that can be selectively used against some people, usually against people with little money to defend themselves. When I moved to LA it was the same with marijuana laws. Cops were raiding poor neighborhoods for marijuana while you could walk in almost any well off neighborhood and smell the smoke from far away. But these neighborhoods never got raided. A law should either get enforced or it should be revoked.

watwut 6y ago

I dont think this is as strong defense of that law as you think. It still makes fixing car or geeking on car punisheable. It still is absurd limitation of what I would expect to be a freedom.

OldManAndTheCpp 6y ago

Making laws that target personal liberties in the hopes that they will be selectively applied does not increase justice.

ziftface 6y ago

I'm sorry but this is difficult to believe. The site says that it's unlawful to do "minor vehicle repair [...] Using tools not normally found in a residence". If it was just a zoning law, why does it have to include that stipulation? I've seen plenty of people who own tools "not normally found in a residence". It's hard to guess exactly what the authors' intentions were, but it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone to conclude that there were other motives besides just cracking down on illegal auto shops.

thaumaturgy 6y ago
Well, the law will be two years old soon. There's one local news article about it where the county's PIO clarified the county's intention [1]. Aside from that, alllllll of these homeowners innocently working on their cars in their own garages and yards around the county and getting hit with hundreds and hundreds of dollars in fines have resulted in... exactly zero other local news coverage that I can find. Every other search result about this thing is some motoring site where the internet commenters are absolutely certain that this is yet another example of draconian liberal legislative overreach and just nobody can really do anything on their own property anymore and it's all just so unfair... Again, I'm expressly not defending the law as it's written, but if the letter of every bad law was to be applied equally to everyone in the same instant, there would not be a single free person anywhere in the country. Like all the others, this one is being applied selectively. [1]: Warning: really obnoxious autoplay videos, because every local news site is on a headlong rush to the bottom of the pit of asshole design. https://www.abc10.com/article/entertainment/television/programs/why-guy-question/why-guy-why-cant-i-work-on-my-car-outside-of-my-house-in-sacramento-county/103-5de49285-3066-4f1f-a38e-4d92b43504bc https://www.abc10.com/article/entertainment/television/progr...
- TeeMassive 6y ago
  > Well, the law will be two years old soon. There's one local news article about it where the county's PIO clarified the county's intention [1]. Aside from that, alllllll of these homeowners innocently working on their cars in their own garages and yards around the county and getting hit with hundreds and hundreds of dollars in fines have resulted in... exactly zero other local news coverage that I can find. Big cities with traffic problem enact this kind of laws to discourage personal car ownership. Sure, just because now it's not actively reported as enforced doesn't mean it won't be in the future, and it wouldn't be the first time where the enactment and the enforcement of a low separated in time to make the pill easier to swallow.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    Exactly. If they have to clarify it in some press release, then they should be amending the ordinance so that it is clear. Unfortunately, the system is lazy. Politicians don't bother to amend laws when these issues arises, police can use their "professional discretion" to enforce or not enforce a law (which leads to unequal enforcement), and the courts tend to "interpret" laws in ways that don't make sense (partially because of the politicians I mentioned earlier, but also a misapplication of statutory construction rules and lenity).

ur-whale 6y ago

> a cudgel against unlicensed repair shops A terrible thing in itself.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

This is a very, very, very naive take. Laws like this exist to only be enforced as needed to screw people as needed. Of course there is not going to be a big enforcement push because that's not the point. The point is to give busybodies a means to screw their neighbors under color of law.

ballenf 6y ago

Why not just require that a car being worked on is registered to an owner at the address? edit: All good points in response. I'm convinced that there is no point in trying to tune the wording of a bad law.

Retric 6y ago
Because working on a family members or friends car isn’t the same thing as running an unlicensed repair shop.
29083011397778 6y ago
Because I did oil changes at my grandparents house when I was younger. I didn't live there, but there was space, tooling, help, breakfast, and an excuse to visit afterwards. "Politicians are idiots, the law should be X" is a trope, but finding a wording that doesn't run afoul of edge cases is very, very, difficult, even before lobbying and perverse incentives make things worse. Note I'm not saying this law was made in good faith, but starting an argument from an assumption of ignorance instead of malice seems more likely to change people's opinion in your favour.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Because "unlicensed shops" is a red herring. They're trying to make life hard on the guy that owns a bunch of beater cars and turns his own wrenches. They're basically saying you have to be rich enough to do it indoors and dodge enforcement or you should GTFO because we don't want you here.
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deleted 6y ago
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patagonia 6y ago

Your defense is a combination of “what about” other poorly written laws and “but it’s not enforced”. I don’t have enough time this morning to explain why these are dangerous and ignorant arguments...

int_19h 6y ago

Are you saying that the law is specifically designed to be selectively applied, with the enforcement authorities more or less arbitrarily deciding what does and what doesn't warrant a crackdown? But that's exactly the kind of law that tends to be enforced in ways that manifest various majority biases in society.

spaetzleesser 6y ago

"but there hasn't been a sweep of the neighborhoods with officers asking to look inside of your garage for uncommon tools." So now we have another set of laws that can be selectively used against some people, usually against people with little money to defend themselves. When I moved to LA it was the same with marijuana laws. Cops were raiding poor neighborhoods for marijuana while you could walk in almost any well off neighborhood and smell the smoke from far away. But these neighborhoods never got raided. A law should either get enforced or it should be revoked.