3 ms·

> puts you in one of two firm categories, and any sort of crossing over or breach between categories is impossible I find this debate interesting so I try to r

by krrrh 6y ago

> puts you in one of two firm categories, and any sort of crossing over or breach between categories is impossible I find this debate interesting so I try to read a lot of different perspectives. I think the /r/gendercritical position was more nuanced than you make it out. They think that while humans can’t change their sex, rigid ideas of what it is to be a man or woman are one of the things that causes some people to feel like they need to. They would say that society should accept a and encourage a broader range of expressions of femaleness and maleness than it does now. The GC position, as I understand it, decries the idea that a butch dyke should feel the need to live under a male identity just because she is far outside of the “firm category” of feminine or has many traditional masculine traits. It’s why they use terms like “butch erasure” [1]. It’s something interesting that I learned reading a now-banned subreddit which helped me to have more compassion and understanding for people who haven’t always had the easiest time in life. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IrnJOSk-3kA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IrnJOSk-3kA

howinteresting 6y ago
Of course society should accept a broader view of maleness and femaleness. Of course butches should be able to live as women if that's what they are. That is exactly the direction I want the world to go in. Why in the world would you think I or any other trans person would think differently? My problem with GCs (in their strongest firm) is the policy prescriptions. Making medical transition harder. Making it harder to get updated documents. Opposing anti-harassment laws in our workplaces and schools. Not letting us use the bathroom in peace. GCs do a really slimy shift from policy to philosophy and back that indicates a deep disrespect for our experiences. I know trans women who present quite masculine while being on estrogen and having changed their name and pronouns. They're butch dykes living as women, not men. They're literally exactly what GCs claim to want. But would GCs think so? No, because their brain is warped by oppositional sexism. The GC position is absurd, untenable, and simply does not fit with the available evidence about humanity.
implements 6y ago
> They think that while humans can’t change their sex, rigid ideas of what it is to be a man or woman are one of the things that causes some people to feel like they need to. They would say that society should accept a and encourage a broader range of expressions of femaleness and maleness than it does now. I can’t speak for all GC people, but for me it’s more a rejection of seeing certain behaviours as gendered at all - rather than things individuals may do. Current trans ideology makes what sex people identify as vitally important, and something that requires gate keeping by femininity. “Womanhood is for feminine people, being feminine is the most important aspect of who I am”. The GC position, ironically, sees sex as primarily important for the purposes of reproduction - though, in the context of ongoing sexual inequality also important for social justice. “Womanhood is for female people, being female is a relatively minor aspect of who I am as a unique individual”.
- howinteresting 6y ago
  That is absolutely not what I as a trans person or any of the trans people I know believe. Stop strawmanning based on your own stereotypes about trans people. To repeat: I do not believe what you claim I believe. I do not believe that womanhood is only for feminine people or any such nonsense. I know and love masc cis women and masc trans women.
Causality1 6y ago
Indeed. I find myself more and more thinking that gender is a fiction we made up to get people not to harass us for behaving a certain way. Which is fine. It's a handy shortcut. I just think you're allowed to not be an extremist. You don't have to be in favor of bathroom door genital inspections to think it's a little unfair for Fallon Fox to get into the ring with cis women and break their skulls. People won't let you hold that kind of opinion, though. You'll just get flamed from both sides.
- howinteresting 6y ago
  There's an image of a woman with a cracked skull that has circulated on the internet, juxtaposed next to a picture of Fallon Fox. Guess who was responsible for that injury. Not Fallon Fox, but a cis woman. MMA is an incredibly dangerous sport. If you want to talk about banning UFC I'm all ears.
  - Causality1 6y ago
    It happened twice, and she bragged about it on her Twitter.

by krrrh 6y ago

howinteresting 6y ago

Of course society should accept a broader view of maleness and femaleness. Of course butches should be able to live as women if that's what they are. That is exactly the direction I want the world to go in. Why in the world would you think I or any other trans person would think differently? My problem with GCs (in their strongest firm) is the policy prescriptions. Making medical transition harder. Making it harder to get updated documents. Opposing anti-harassment laws in our workplaces and schools. Not letting us use the bathroom in peace. GCs do a really slimy shift from policy to philosophy and back that indicates a deep disrespect for our experiences. I know trans women who present quite masculine while being on estrogen and having changed their name and pronouns. They're butch dykes living as women, not men. They're literally exactly what GCs claim to want. But would GCs think so? No, because their brain is warped by oppositional sexism. The GC position is absurd, untenable, and simply does not fit with the available evidence about humanity.

implements 6y ago

> They think that while humans can’t change their sex, rigid ideas of what it is to be a man or woman are one of the things that causes some people to feel like they need to. They would say that society should accept a and encourage a broader range of expressions of femaleness and maleness than it does now. I can’t speak for all GC people, but for me it’s more a rejection of seeing certain behaviours as gendered at all - rather than things individuals may do. Current trans ideology makes what sex people identify as vitally important, and something that requires gate keeping by femininity. “Womanhood is for feminine people, being feminine is the most important aspect of who I am”. The GC position, ironically, sees sex as primarily important for the purposes of reproduction - though, in the context of ongoing sexual inequality also important for social justice. “Womanhood is for female people, being female is a relatively minor aspect of who I am as a unique individual”.

howinteresting 6y ago
That is absolutely not what I as a trans person or any of the trans people I know believe. Stop strawmanning based on your own stereotypes about trans people. To repeat: I do not believe what you claim I believe. I do not believe that womanhood is only for feminine people or any such nonsense. I know and love masc cis women and masc trans women.

Causality1 6y ago

Indeed. I find myself more and more thinking that gender is a fiction we made up to get people not to harass us for behaving a certain way. Which is fine. It's a handy shortcut. I just think you're allowed to not be an extremist. You don't have to be in favor of bathroom door genital inspections to think it's a little unfair for Fallon Fox to get into the ring with cis women and break their skulls. People won't let you hold that kind of opinion, though. You'll just get flamed from both sides.

howinteresting 6y ago
There's an image of a woman with a cracked skull that has circulated on the internet, juxtaposed next to a picture of Fallon Fox. Guess who was responsible for that injury. Not Fallon Fox, but a cis woman. MMA is an incredibly dangerous sport. If you want to talk about banning UFC I'm all ears.
- Causality1 6y ago
  It happened twice, and she bragged about it on her Twitter.