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There were some interesting profiles following the NotPetya attack on Maersk in 2017 where Maersk claimed to have 1,200 - 1,500 applications, 49,000 laptops, 6,

There were some interesting profiles following the NotPetya attack on Maersk in 2017 where Maersk claimed to have 1,200 - 1,500 applications, 49,000 laptops, 6,200 servers. Maersk are entering into block-chain "distributed ledger technology" with IBM and similar modern solutions. But one article put $300 of every $2,000 of shipping costs for administration and paperwork[0]. I think you're right, there is a massive advantage to be had, and companies are chasing that advantage. But from my (tangential logistics) background, even the biggest shipping companies have the usual range of legacy systems, heavy administration overhead, plenty of paperwork, excel-based-tools and huge integration headaches. 0 - https://www.supplychaindigital.com/technology-4/maersk-and-ibm-are-bringing-blockchain-tech-shipping-industry https://www.supplychaindigital.com/technology-4/maersk-and-i...

oliv__ 6y ago
> 300 of every $2,000 of shipping costs for administration and paperwork Damn that's a lot. I understand this is a capital intensive industry so I guess it's hard/impossible to get in now but it seems like if someone started a competitor from scratch and had great software as the foundation of their company, they'd make a killing
- bombcar 6y ago
  15% overhead is actually pretty low all things considering.
  - jacurtis 6y ago
    Yeah the cost for paperwork and administration in aviation is over 50%.
    - angry_octet 6y ago
      This is an extraordinary claim. Obviously some of the prior costs are due to paperwork, but really? https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter5/air-transport/airline-operating-costs/ https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter5/air-transpo...
      - bombcar 6y ago
        That doesn't break it down in the same way - what percentage of "labor" is "administrative overhead" for example.
        angry_octet 6y ago
        Everyone has to do paperwork, but is that 'admin overhead' it an essential part of safety culture? I'm struggling to see where the overhead is that significant. It is a lot more obvious in other fields -- medicine and highly regulated/litigious professions.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  A good deal of it probably has to do with how crazy customs gets in every single port, and how to properly insure goods. (Lloyd’s of London got its start in marine insurance.) If your paperwork is mostly driven by other actors tech probably won’t help all that much. Tech has not made significant inroads in disrupting American health insurance, for example.
  - akudha 6y ago
    Is there a reason these customs processes can't be simplified? Or is it due to some perverse capitalist reason, like TurboTax lobbying against simpler tax code?
    - magicalhippo 6y ago
      Here in Norway it's mostly been a lack of focus and money. The government doesn't seem to consider the huge hidden cost to the businesses in the country this represents, and the businesses haven't been stellar at highlighting it, which I guess is because they mostly just push that cost onto the consumers.
    - bobthepanda 6y ago
      - Every set of goods has its own regulations. Ships carry all sorts of goods. - Every country has different customs regulations, so paperwork is not really that reusable across ports. - Customs is a huge source of fraud. In poorly managed countries it is one of the prime vectors for bribery and corruption. So destination ports have to verify everything even if they do receive the paperwork, because there’s no trust. Generally speaking if you want to cut customs red tape your options are some kind of free trade deal (which is not necessarily popular and never covers all types of goods), or banding together with a bunch of different countries to submit to one supranational entity like the EU. In fact we have a live example of how complicated customs arrangements can be; look at how trade from UK to EU has been disrupted by Brexit and the introduction of customs.
    - codesforhugs 6y ago
      One big factor is simply that a customs authority can dictate whatever process it wishes for ships who want to load/unload cargo there. It's also not just customs, there are a ton of ancillary processes related to berthing - things like harbor fees, environmental documentation etc. I know of at least one case where, as recently as ~2015, a shipping company had to keep around old machines with IE8 because that was the only way to interact with authorities at a given port.
- tester34 6y ago
  "great software" "logistics" "from scratch" it does not compile, I guess it's just like those ERP Systems - you don't need shitton of domain knowledge, because you need fuckton of domain knowledge and during development you'll learn even more and have to refactor a lot of stuff frequently for edge cases.
  - staz 6y ago
    https://xkcd.com/1831/ https://xkcd.com/1831/ relevant xkcd
- magicalhippo 6y ago
  > had great software as the foundation This is obviously something that affects how competitive you can be. As an example, our software allowed a customer to go from 5-6 hours of work in their previous application, to less than 10 minutes in ours for a typical workload. However, a big remaining issue is that there's a lot of local laws and procedures around which are not exposed in a computer-friendly way. If they are computerized they're often old systems with serious limitations. For example, import declarations in Denmark is limited to only 99 goods items, so consolidation of goods items is almost required, especially in e-commerce settings, which again makes it more difficult if things are re-exported (customer didn't want that jacket say). This can't be fixed on the commercial side, it requires work by the government agencies.

oliv__ 6y ago

> 300 of every $2,000 of shipping costs for administration and paperwork Damn that's a lot. I understand this is a capital intensive industry so I guess it's hard/impossible to get in now but it seems like if someone started a competitor from scratch and had great software as the foundation of their company, they'd make a killing

bombcar 6y ago
15% overhead is actually pretty low all things considering.
- jacurtis 6y ago
  Yeah the cost for paperwork and administration in aviation is over 50%.
  - angry_octet 6y ago
    This is an extraordinary claim. Obviously some of the prior costs are due to paperwork, but really? https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter5/air-transport/airline-operating-costs/ https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter5/air-transpo...
    - bombcar 6y ago
      That doesn't break it down in the same way - what percentage of "labor" is "administrative overhead" for example.
      - angry_octet 6y ago
        Everyone has to do paperwork, but is that 'admin overhead' it an essential part of safety culture? I'm struggling to see where the overhead is that significant. It is a lot more obvious in other fields -- medicine and highly regulated/litigious professions.
bobthepanda 6y ago
A good deal of it probably has to do with how crazy customs gets in every single port, and how to properly insure goods. (Lloyd’s of London got its start in marine insurance.) If your paperwork is mostly driven by other actors tech probably won’t help all that much. Tech has not made significant inroads in disrupting American health insurance, for example.
- akudha 6y ago
  Is there a reason these customs processes can't be simplified? Or is it due to some perverse capitalist reason, like TurboTax lobbying against simpler tax code?
  - magicalhippo 6y ago
    Here in Norway it's mostly been a lack of focus and money. The government doesn't seem to consider the huge hidden cost to the businesses in the country this represents, and the businesses haven't been stellar at highlighting it, which I guess is because they mostly just push that cost onto the consumers.
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    - Every set of goods has its own regulations. Ships carry all sorts of goods. - Every country has different customs regulations, so paperwork is not really that reusable across ports. - Customs is a huge source of fraud. In poorly managed countries it is one of the prime vectors for bribery and corruption. So destination ports have to verify everything even if they do receive the paperwork, because there’s no trust. Generally speaking if you want to cut customs red tape your options are some kind of free trade deal (which is not necessarily popular and never covers all types of goods), or banding together with a bunch of different countries to submit to one supranational entity like the EU. In fact we have a live example of how complicated customs arrangements can be; look at how trade from UK to EU has been disrupted by Brexit and the introduction of customs.
  - codesforhugs 6y ago
    One big factor is simply that a customs authority can dictate whatever process it wishes for ships who want to load/unload cargo there. It's also not just customs, there are a ton of ancillary processes related to berthing - things like harbor fees, environmental documentation etc. I know of at least one case where, as recently as ~2015, a shipping company had to keep around old machines with IE8 because that was the only way to interact with authorities at a given port.
tester34 6y ago
"great software" "logistics" "from scratch" it does not compile, I guess it's just like those ERP Systems - you don't need shitton of domain knowledge, because you need fuckton of domain knowledge and during development you'll learn even more and have to refactor a lot of stuff frequently for edge cases.
- staz 6y ago
  https://xkcd.com/1831/ https://xkcd.com/1831/ relevant xkcd
magicalhippo 6y ago
> had great software as the foundation This is obviously something that affects how competitive you can be. As an example, our software allowed a customer to go from 5-6 hours of work in their previous application, to less than 10 minutes in ours for a typical workload. However, a big remaining issue is that there's a lot of local laws and procedures around which are not exposed in a computer-friendly way. If they are computerized they're often old systems with serious limitations. For example, import declarations in Denmark is limited to only 99 goods items, so consolidation of goods items is almost required, especially in e-commerce settings, which again makes it more difficult if things are re-exported (customer didn't want that jacket say). This can't be fixed on the commercial side, it requires work by the government agencies.