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The problem I had with this style training is you are fundamentally asking the dog to make a choice, the best I can offer is its favorite treat and praise. Inev

The problem I had with this style training is you are fundamentally asking the dog to make a choice, the best I can offer is its favorite treat and praise. Inevitably something better than that will come along. I have seen my dog hear a command that he knows will 100% result in a treat, pause to look at me, and then turn again to chase a squirrel. I don't want to discipline my dog but I don't see how a carrot only method of training can result in perfect obedience, and for a command like "Come" it can literally be deadly if they decide they don't need a treat at that moment.

mgarfias 6y ago
That’s positive reinforcement only. You absolutely need to use all four quadrants of operant conditioning. There have to be consequences to choosing to blow off a command.
- throwaway3neu94 6y ago
  There don't _have_ to be "consequences". You _can_ definitely use positive only training to teach an alternate behavior (e.g. recall or distance down) and proof it under progressively more difficult scenarios (distance/duration/distractions), backing up every time the dog makes a mistake. Until that command is such a strong habit that the dog will reliably do the behavior on cue. And in the meantime prevent the bad behavior (with a leash) to prevent ingraining the undesired behavior. Not saying negative reinforcement _should_ not be used (it may be more effective, and may even be the difference between achieving or not achieving the desired behavior with the amount of effort any particular trainer can put in). Just that it's not as absolute as you say.
  - mgarfias 6y ago
    I didnt say you had to beat the shit out of the dog when it didn't comply. It could be going into the 'negative punishment' quadrant, and with holding the dog's favorite tug.
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throwaway3neu94 6y ago
Eventually it shouldn't be a choice though, it should be a deeply ingrained habit. There shouldn't even be a treat then, it should be faded out. Of course that takes a lot of training, where you can control the situation to give the dog a fake choice (by leashing him) and/or ensure the bad choice is the right amount less awesome than the treat. I am not advocating against negative reinforcement here. It can help build good habits by steering the dog towards the good choice and preventing the bad one. I'm just disagreeing with the notion that the end result should be the dog deciding based on expected reward and punishment. (I know this is quite idealistic.)

mgarfias 6y ago

That’s positive reinforcement only. You absolutely need to use all four quadrants of operant conditioning. There have to be consequences to choosing to blow off a command.

throwaway3neu94 6y ago
There don't _have_ to be "consequences". You _can_ definitely use positive only training to teach an alternate behavior (e.g. recall or distance down) and proof it under progressively more difficult scenarios (distance/duration/distractions), backing up every time the dog makes a mistake. Until that command is such a strong habit that the dog will reliably do the behavior on cue. And in the meantime prevent the bad behavior (with a leash) to prevent ingraining the undesired behavior. Not saying negative reinforcement _should_ not be used (it may be more effective, and may even be the difference between achieving or not achieving the desired behavior with the amount of effort any particular trainer can put in). Just that it's not as absolute as you say.
- mgarfias 6y ago
  I didnt say you had to beat the shit out of the dog when it didn't comply. It could be going into the 'negative punishment' quadrant, and with holding the dog's favorite tug.
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throwaway3neu94 6y ago

Eventually it shouldn't be a choice though, it should be a deeply ingrained habit. There shouldn't even be a treat then, it should be faded out. Of course that takes a lot of training, where you can control the situation to give the dog a fake choice (by leashing him) and/or ensure the bad choice is the right amount less awesome than the treat. I am not advocating against negative reinforcement here. It can help build good habits by steering the dog towards the good choice and preventing the bad one. I'm just disagreeing with the notion that the end result should be the dog deciding based on expected reward and punishment. (I know this is quite idealistic.)