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Same - despite all the hate I liked AMP. Hackers / developers seem to insist on the non-AMP sites to bloat sites to absolute trash and back. If I saw the amp l

Same - despite all the hate I liked AMP. Hackers / developers seem to insist on the non-AMP sites to bloat sites to absolute trash and back. If I saw the amp logo, I knew that was the one to click. Abusing users with bloat is supposedly some great freedom worth fighting for, but AMP forcing these developers into a much smaller box that they can't screw with users as much on I just loved AMP. I think a lot of the HN hate comes because AMP I think prohibits random third party javascript ad libraries. So obviously it hits folks where it hurts, but the web is much nicer to browse without all the junk.

Shared404 6y ago
> Abusing users with bloat is supposedly some great freedom worth fighting for The thing people were offended by wasn't the lack of bloat, it was the fact that it was ceding even more control to Google.
- random5634 6y ago
  But yet these users never deploy a non-google debloated world. Billing on line is the same thing. Unless you are on a trusted site (Amazon / Apple) you can just get hosed trying to cancel subscriptions with jack up pricing etc. Same thing with spam - at some point users stopped trusting the hackers and developers and migrated to more controlled worlds (ie, gmail etc) which blocks HUGE quantities of the junk. I just wish hackers spent some time trying to make users experience and lives better rather than the constant push to spam them (EFF wanted to pass laws banning anti-spam measures), now AMP (which was amazing) is being attacked endlessly and the list goes on. Google has a commercial reason for pushing this stuff - the web was turning into a trash bit (flyover ads with audio etc etc).
  - m8s 6y ago
    Which users? What a sweeping generalization. Your disdain for some mythical group of people is very odd. Besides, does blocking ads and trackers not at least partially alleviate the issue? Works well for me and, in combination with a reader view, is a significantly better experience than AMP. I'd argue that those "hackers" you very much hate are the exact ones fighting against corporate bloat on the web.
    - fishywang 6y ago
      "blocking ads and trackers" on the phone means that there's basically only one choice which is firefox, no? not saying firefox is not good but it's at least not for everyone.
      - pps 6y ago
        I'm using Opera on Android, it has ad-blocker built-in. I think Vivaldi has it too.
        fishywang 6y ago
        I know those browsers exist, but how much percentage of mobile web browser traffic are coming from browsers with the ability to block ads?
        Shared404 6y ago
        So because Google's browser is hostile to making the Web useful except for the stuff under Google's control, we should cede control to Google?
      - alsetmusic 6y ago
        > "blocking ads and trackers" on the phone means that there's basically only one choice which is firefox, no? not saying firefox is not good but it's at least not for everyone. I'm blocking a good percentage of ads in Safari on my iPhone via third-party apps Hush[0] and Magic Lasso[1]. I typically read articles in Reader mode. Because of this, I can't give a great accounting of how many ads actually get through. Certainly, the number is small enough that I don't think about it. [0] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hush-nag-blocker/id1544743900 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hush-nag-blocker/id1544743900 [1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ad-blocker-by-magic-lasso/id1260462853 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ad-blocker-by-magic-lasso/id12...
    - random5634 6y ago
      Apple is a complete walled garden, and plenty of folks have migrated to their phones for example - they actually want an experience that is very predictable and can be trusted. Apple charges HIGH amounts of money as a result of this level of user trust. I also think users are more likely to spend money inside this garden - I know I do because it's much harder to get screwed there. I'll subscribe to an apple app long before I'd do the same on a random website.
enos_feedler 6y ago
This is true. AMP is a punch in the gut for someone who advocates for the open web. It says: the roadmap you implemented wasn't right for users. It let publishers abuse the user experience. We are taking a step backward, hiding many things that are too powerful, and making it more restrictive. I completely understand why open web advocates would not greet AMP with a warm welcome. That doesn't mean it wasn't necessary to fix the problems. The problems were and are real.
- meowfly 6y ago
  I'm still confused what problem AMP was fixing. Google could just make page speed more important in their rankings. They probably don't because page speed isn't as important as content quality in regards to what people are looking for in search. I still struggle to see how AMP has anything to do with improving the search experience and everything to do with Google abusing their market dominance.
  - random5634 6y ago
    Focus was on a "user first" - NOT developer or hacker first approach. So a ton of the stuff that HN folks demand (being able to do dynamic third party javacript ads and tracker loads, DOM modification after render - gone - you just are totally blocked. If you try targeting AMP (or just consuming AMP) you'll pretty quickly get what they are going for. For example - AMP websites really do not reflow that often (or at all). I've never I don't think had something move when I was going to click it even early in page load. I've found a lot of complaints about AMP are developed / hacker focused complaints. If you switch your mindset to users, including non-tech types, the value becomes more obvious.
    - meowfly 6y ago
      That doesn't address my point: Couldn't Google just have increased the rank of pages with minimal Javascript and faster load times? I think you might be strawmanning why some HN folks don't like AMP. To me, at least, it looks like someone abusing their position as the dominant search engine. AMP lightning icons didn't get attached to pages with just one tracker and fast renders. They were attached to pages served by Google that only supported Google tracking.
Mindwipe 6y ago
Reddit's AMP pages have lots of design bloat and much less information than the non-AMP pages. That's not uncommon.
- random5634 6y ago
  I mostly consumed news stories via google news - so my exposure was relatively narrow

Shared404 6y ago

> Abusing users with bloat is supposedly some great freedom worth fighting for The thing people were offended by wasn't the lack of bloat, it was the fact that it was ceding even more control to Google.

random5634 6y ago
But yet these users never deploy a non-google debloated world. Billing on line is the same thing. Unless you are on a trusted site (Amazon / Apple) you can just get hosed trying to cancel subscriptions with jack up pricing etc. Same thing with spam - at some point users stopped trusting the hackers and developers and migrated to more controlled worlds (ie, gmail etc) which blocks HUGE quantities of the junk. I just wish hackers spent some time trying to make users experience and lives better rather than the constant push to spam them (EFF wanted to pass laws banning anti-spam measures), now AMP (which was amazing) is being attacked endlessly and the list goes on. Google has a commercial reason for pushing this stuff - the web was turning into a trash bit (flyover ads with audio etc etc).
- m8s 6y ago
  Which users? What a sweeping generalization. Your disdain for some mythical group of people is very odd. Besides, does blocking ads and trackers not at least partially alleviate the issue? Works well for me and, in combination with a reader view, is a significantly better experience than AMP. I'd argue that those "hackers" you very much hate are the exact ones fighting against corporate bloat on the web.
  - fishywang 6y ago
    "blocking ads and trackers" on the phone means that there's basically only one choice which is firefox, no? not saying firefox is not good but it's at least not for everyone.
    - pps 6y ago
      I'm using Opera on Android, it has ad-blocker built-in. I think Vivaldi has it too.
      - fishywang 6y ago
        I know those browsers exist, but how much percentage of mobile web browser traffic are coming from browsers with the ability to block ads?
        Shared404 6y ago
        So because Google's browser is hostile to making the Web useful except for the stuff under Google's control, we should cede control to Google?
    - alsetmusic 6y ago
      > "blocking ads and trackers" on the phone means that there's basically only one choice which is firefox, no? not saying firefox is not good but it's at least not for everyone. I'm blocking a good percentage of ads in Safari on my iPhone via third-party apps Hush[0] and Magic Lasso[1]. I typically read articles in Reader mode. Because of this, I can't give a great accounting of how many ads actually get through. Certainly, the number is small enough that I don't think about it. [0] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hush-nag-blocker/id1544743900 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hush-nag-blocker/id1544743900 [1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ad-blocker-by-magic-lasso/id1260462853 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ad-blocker-by-magic-lasso/id12...
  - random5634 6y ago
    Apple is a complete walled garden, and plenty of folks have migrated to their phones for example - they actually want an experience that is very predictable and can be trusted. Apple charges HIGH amounts of money as a result of this level of user trust. I also think users are more likely to spend money inside this garden - I know I do because it's much harder to get screwed there. I'll subscribe to an apple app long before I'd do the same on a random website.

enos_feedler 6y ago

This is true. AMP is a punch in the gut for someone who advocates for the open web. It says: the roadmap you implemented wasn't right for users. It let publishers abuse the user experience. We are taking a step backward, hiding many things that are too powerful, and making it more restrictive. I completely understand why open web advocates would not greet AMP with a warm welcome. That doesn't mean it wasn't necessary to fix the problems. The problems were and are real.

meowfly 6y ago
I'm still confused what problem AMP was fixing. Google could just make page speed more important in their rankings. They probably don't because page speed isn't as important as content quality in regards to what people are looking for in search. I still struggle to see how AMP has anything to do with improving the search experience and everything to do with Google abusing their market dominance.
- random5634 6y ago
  Focus was on a "user first" - NOT developer or hacker first approach. So a ton of the stuff that HN folks demand (being able to do dynamic third party javacript ads and tracker loads, DOM modification after render - gone - you just are totally blocked. If you try targeting AMP (or just consuming AMP) you'll pretty quickly get what they are going for. For example - AMP websites really do not reflow that often (or at all). I've never I don't think had something move when I was going to click it even early in page load. I've found a lot of complaints about AMP are developed / hacker focused complaints. If you switch your mindset to users, including non-tech types, the value becomes more obvious.
  - meowfly 6y ago
    That doesn't address my point: Couldn't Google just have increased the rank of pages with minimal Javascript and faster load times? I think you might be strawmanning why some HN folks don't like AMP. To me, at least, it looks like someone abusing their position as the dominant search engine. AMP lightning icons didn't get attached to pages with just one tracker and fast renders. They were attached to pages served by Google that only supported Google tracking.

Mindwipe 6y ago

Reddit's AMP pages have lots of design bloat and much less information than the non-AMP pages. That's not uncommon.

random5634 6y ago
I mostly consumed news stories via google news - so my exposure was relatively narrow