7 ms·

How does this not produce gnashing of teeth and rage in people? Seriously, what the fuck is up with this holier-than-thou virtue signaling bullshit? Good to hav

How does this not produce gnashing of teeth and rage in people? Seriously, what the fuck is up with this holier-than-thou virtue signaling bullshit? Good to have a list of people that apparently approve of this kind of thing so I know what to avoid.

creamytaco 6y ago
100%. This is a modern day witch hunt by dangerous fanatics that think they can gang up against and cancel someone they don't like. I'm glad they put their names down as I want nothing to do with these people.
- xtracto 6y ago
  I was so disappointed in reading Federico Mena Quintero's name in the list. I have respect on him as a Mexican developer and open source evangelist. To think that a lot of people here In Mexico laugh at the crazy Political Correctness and overreaction of Americans... I would think he would be more on the side of just getting shit done, live and let live.
uncledave 6y ago
This. Fuck ‘em all. This creates more divides, more animosity and discredits us all. It is not welcome.
jcastro 6y ago
Have you not ever met the guy? Yeesh.
- uncledave 6y ago
  I have. He’s less of an asshat than my father. At best my father got called a prick. We didn’t form a consortium of people to cancel him. That’s just batshit crazy.
  - jcastro 6y ago
    Multiple decades of bad behavior, people are tired of it and don't want to work with him. You can't force people to work with someone who treats them like shit.
    - howeyc 6y ago
      Then go work at SFFSF (Stallman-Free Free Software Foundation), name not final. You aren't being force to interact with the FSF.
      - joshuamorton 6y ago
        That's essentially what's happening here. You have something like half the keynote speakers from LibreConf last week announcing that they will no longer participate in FSF events, and a bunch of community members supporting them.
        thereddaikon 6y ago
        No that's not what's happening. What is happening is they are trying to force RMS and now the entire FSF board out of the community. That's not the same as refusing to work with someone.
        joshuamorton 6y ago
        Interesting, could you point out where in that letter these people are being forced out of the community? Alternatively, could you explain how you differentiate "we will not work with these people" and "forcing someone out of the community"? Like if enough people refuse to work with someone, doesn't that functionally force them out of the community? I see two demands: the FSF board step down, and Stallman remove himself from any leadership positions. This is functionally the same request as last time, to keep RMS out of leadership. I'm unaware of any significant backlash to him having been a speaker at LibreConf, so clearly he could still still be a community member.
- olalonde 6y ago
  I agree that Stallman is probably not the best PR person for the FSF, but that's not what this is about. This is about canceling Stallman due to his "problematic opinions". It's a modern day witch hunt. Notice how all of the evidence against him[0] is just about his controversial opinions rather than his behavior. [0] https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix
  - untitaker_ 6y ago
    Stallman is the public face of the FSF, by him being in the position that he is in, everything he says is representative of what the FSF stands for. It is precisely about whether he is a good PR person.
    - olalonde 6y ago
      The open letter goes much further than that: > These sorts of beliefs have no place in the free software, digital rights, and tech communities. It's not: we need someone a bit less weird to be our PR person. It's: we need to cancel this person completely out of tech due to their "problematic opinions".
      - coolreader18 6y ago
        Have you looked at the appendix[0]? They seem a bit more than just "problematic". 2013: "There is little evidence to justify the widespread assumption that willing participation in pedophilia hurts children." 2015: "I wish an attractive woman had "abused" me that way when I was 14. I would have learned many important things and had a much happier life." 2016, on Down's syndrome: "If you'd like to love and care for a pet that doesn't have normal human mental capacity, don't create a handicapped human being to be your pet." 2017: "[..] together with the dishonest law that labels sex with adolescents as "rape" even if they are willing, [..]" To be honest, the parts on transphobia seem a bit overblown; he does seem to be accepting of different gender identities (and even plurality), but still doesn't like the use of they as a singular specific pronoun. However, I just really don't think it's necessary to re-admit someone with those ^ views to the board of an organization. [0]: https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix
- jsight 6y ago
  I think that's a fair statement, but this letter calls for the removal of all FSF board members. Is that a fair response to RMS' opinions and behavior?
- rubin55 6y ago
  I actually did meet Stallman on a few occasions. In all cases he was a kind and generally awesome human being: * 2000's, Linux Conference in San Francisco / Silicon Valley, I asked him about porting some app from LibC5 to GlibC6, I bought the GNU LibC manuals there. I imagine he was more confused than me about my newbie questions, but he patiently heard me out and gave me some valuable insights. * 2010-2016ish, FOSDEM conferences in Brussels. Attended multiple talks of him about FOSS. Edit: Small spelling fixes and clarifications here and there.
rvz 6y ago
The whole trendy cancelling thing is already completely senseless, out of control and is comparable to medieval standards. Even if RMS dares to 'apologise' or say 'Sorry', those who already signed that list will never redeem his 'sins' and to them he is condemned forever to the lost and banned.
bit-rot 6y ago
Look, without getting into a debate on cancel culture, I’m wondering if it’s specifically virtue signaling that you object to. Because RMS is specifically known for a massive amount of virtue signaling. It’s all over his website and was written all over his office at MIT. And he would join discussions and change the subject to whatever he felt like talking about in order to, we’ll, spread the good word. And of course the free software movement more broadly is about taking a moral stance and aggressively spreading it through copyleft and other forms of activism. So I wonder if it’s not “virtue signaling” here that’s the problem, but the virtue being signaled itself that you don’t like.

creamytaco 6y ago

100%. This is a modern day witch hunt by dangerous fanatics that think they can gang up against and cancel someone they don't like. I'm glad they put their names down as I want nothing to do with these people.

xtracto 6y ago
I was so disappointed in reading Federico Mena Quintero's name in the list. I have respect on him as a Mexican developer and open source evangelist. To think that a lot of people here In Mexico laugh at the crazy Political Correctness and overreaction of Americans... I would think he would be more on the side of just getting shit done, live and let live.

uncledave 6y ago

This. Fuck ‘em all. This creates more divides, more animosity and discredits us all. It is not welcome.

jcastro 6y ago

Have you not ever met the guy? Yeesh.

uncledave 6y ago
I have. He’s less of an asshat than my father. At best my father got called a prick. We didn’t form a consortium of people to cancel him. That’s just batshit crazy.
- jcastro 6y ago
  Multiple decades of bad behavior, people are tired of it and don't want to work with him. You can't force people to work with someone who treats them like shit.
  - howeyc 6y ago
    Then go work at SFFSF (Stallman-Free Free Software Foundation), name not final. You aren't being force to interact with the FSF.
    - joshuamorton 6y ago
      That's essentially what's happening here. You have something like half the keynote speakers from LibreConf last week announcing that they will no longer participate in FSF events, and a bunch of community members supporting them.
      - thereddaikon 6y ago
        No that's not what's happening. What is happening is they are trying to force RMS and now the entire FSF board out of the community. That's not the same as refusing to work with someone.
        joshuamorton 6y ago
        Interesting, could you point out where in that letter these people are being forced out of the community? Alternatively, could you explain how you differentiate "we will not work with these people" and "forcing someone out of the community"? Like if enough people refuse to work with someone, doesn't that functionally force them out of the community? I see two demands: the FSF board step down, and Stallman remove himself from any leadership positions. This is functionally the same request as last time, to keep RMS out of leadership. I'm unaware of any significant backlash to him having been a speaker at LibreConf, so clearly he could still still be a community member.
olalonde 6y ago
I agree that Stallman is probably not the best PR person for the FSF, but that's not what this is about. This is about canceling Stallman due to his "problematic opinions". It's a modern day witch hunt. Notice how all of the evidence against him[0] is just about his controversial opinions rather than his behavior. [0] https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix
- untitaker_ 6y ago
  Stallman is the public face of the FSF, by him being in the position that he is in, everything he says is representative of what the FSF stands for. It is precisely about whether he is a good PR person.
  - olalonde 6y ago
    The open letter goes much further than that: > These sorts of beliefs have no place in the free software, digital rights, and tech communities. It's not: we need someone a bit less weird to be our PR person. It's: we need to cancel this person completely out of tech due to their "problematic opinions".
    - coolreader18 6y ago
      Have you looked at the appendix[0]? They seem a bit more than just "problematic". 2013: "There is little evidence to justify the widespread assumption that willing participation in pedophilia hurts children." 2015: "I wish an attractive woman had "abused" me that way when I was 14. I would have learned many important things and had a much happier life." 2016, on Down's syndrome: "If you'd like to love and care for a pet that doesn't have normal human mental capacity, don't create a handicapped human being to be your pet." 2017: "[..] together with the dishonest law that labels sex with adolescents as "rape" even if they are willing, [..]" To be honest, the parts on transphobia seem a bit overblown; he does seem to be accepting of different gender identities (and even plurality), but still doesn't like the use of they as a singular specific pronoun. However, I just really don't think it's necessary to re-admit someone with those ^ views to the board of an organization. [0]: https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix
jsight 6y ago
I think that's a fair statement, but this letter calls for the removal of all FSF board members. Is that a fair response to RMS' opinions and behavior?
rubin55 6y ago
I actually did meet Stallman on a few occasions. In all cases he was a kind and generally awesome human being: * 2000's, Linux Conference in San Francisco / Silicon Valley, I asked him about porting some app from LibC5 to GlibC6, I bought the GNU LibC manuals there. I imagine he was more confused than me about my newbie questions, but he patiently heard me out and gave me some valuable insights. * 2010-2016ish, FOSDEM conferences in Brussels. Attended multiple talks of him about FOSS. Edit: Small spelling fixes and clarifications here and there.

rvz 6y ago

The whole trendy cancelling thing is already completely senseless, out of control and is comparable to medieval standards. Even if RMS dares to 'apologise' or say 'Sorry', those who already signed that list will never redeem his 'sins' and to them he is condemned forever to the lost and banned.

bit-rot 6y ago

Look, without getting into a debate on cancel culture, I’m wondering if it’s specifically virtue signaling that you object to. Because RMS is specifically known for a massive amount of virtue signaling. It’s all over his website and was written all over his office at MIT. And he would join discussions and change the subject to whatever he felt like talking about in order to, we’ll, spread the good word. And of course the free software movement more broadly is about taking a moral stance and aggressively spreading it through copyleft and other forms of activism. So I wonder if it’s not “virtue signaling” here that’s the problem, but the virtue being signaled itself that you don’t like.