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An important part of the article: > Technically, these drivers aren't even employed by Amazon, but by roughly 800 companies, known as delivery service partners

by cj 6y ago

An important part of the article: > Technically, these drivers aren't even employed by Amazon, but by roughly 800 companies, known as delivery service partners that operate out of Amazon delivery stations This surprised me the first I heard it. The Amazon delivery vans you see are actually just independently owned businesses that are doing deliveries for Amazon, under the Amazon branding. I'm not familiar with the details, but I'm guessing it's similar to how you might franchise a chain restaurant, where the franchise imposes rules / requirements on franchisees. So, when Amazon is "installing cameras in its delivery vans", it really means they're requiring 800 independently owned businesses to install cameras and force (non-Amazon) employees to comply.

yunohn 6y ago
It’s a far too common (and immoral) arrangement these days - offsets a lot of costs around direct employment, and reduces their rights and pay, and helps Amazon evade lots of responsibility.
- saas_sam 6y ago
  Franchises are immoral?
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    It's not a franchise. Fedex paid a steep price ($240 million) for attempting the same shenanigans (attempting to skirt proper employment classification when it was clear they were operating as Fedex) with their Ground operations [1] [2]. The more control you have over how the work is done, the less likely it is to be classified as an "independent contractor" arrangement. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fedex-settlement/fedex-to-settle-driver-lawsuits-in-20-states-for-240-million-idUSKCN0Z229Q https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fedex-settlement/fedex-to... [2] http://cwstrategies.staffingindustry.com/fedex-to-pay-228-million-right-to-control-prompts-settlement-in-ic-lawsuit/ http://cwstrategies.staffingindustry.com/fedex-to-pay-228-mi...
    - saas_sam 6y ago
      I know someone who runs an Amazon last-mile delivery service. He bought the vans. He employs the drivers. Doesn't sound like the same thing as what FedEx was doing.
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        Same arrangement Fedex Ground had. The associate you mention is Amazon middle management in an arrangement meant to avoid employee classification. > The Ninth Circuit focused on FedEx’s control of the drivers despite the operating agreement referring to them as “independent contractors.” > “As a central part of its business, FedEx Ground Package System Inc. contracts with drivers to deliver packages to its customers,” the court wrote in its opinion. > “The drivers must wear FedEx uniforms, drive FedEx-approved vehicles and groom themselves according to FedEx’s appearance standards,” the opinion continues. “FedEx tells its drivers what packages to deliver, on what days, and at what times. Although drivers may operate multiple delivery routes and hire third parties to help perform their work, they may do so only with FedEx’s consent. FedEx contends its drivers are independent contractors under California law. Plaintiffs, a class of FedEx drivers in California, contend they are employees. We agree with plaintiffs.” > The court said the amount of control used by FedEx ranged from the dimensions of packing shelves on trucks to the appearance of drivers — down to their clothing choice of shoes and socks. It also said FedEx offers a “business support package” which provides drivers with uniforms, scanners and other equipment. The package is optional, but 99% of drivers purchase it, according to the court, and scanners drivers must use in package delivery are not readily available from other sources. This jives pretty closely with every Amazon driver I've spoken to. Amazon exerts too much control over the work being done for it not to be classified as an employee relationship, and their entire last mile experience for the customer depends on such control. Amazon is also responsible for designing the truck you must drive as an Amazon driver. IANAL, just making observations based on past legal precedent, current public policy, and anecdotes from Amazon workers I intentionally interact with to get ground truth.
      - varispeed 6y ago
        If he has just one client, then definitely both sides are taking a mickey. Amazon because they don't have to buy vans, be involved in employment law, paying employer taxes etc. and the driver because likely they don't pay the same tax as if they were employed.
  - yunohn 6y ago
    Franchises that are basically proxy shell companies to hire 1 (to 5) people are.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
abrambleninja 6y ago
Cory Doctorow has an excellent blogpost on Amazon's delivery service partners[1] and why it's a very difficult situation for the workers to demand better working conditions. It's very eye-opening in my opinion. [1]: https://pluralistic.net/2021/03/19/the-shakedown/#weird-flex https://pluralistic.net/2021/03/19/the-shakedown/#weird-flex
varispeed 6y ago
Interesting - if an Amazon has direct control over what sub-contractor is doing, isn't the sub-contractor a de facto employee of Amazon, but because of how arrangement is made there is a substantial difference in tax to pay? Something like this in the UK is dealt by regulation called IR35.
sschueller 6y ago
This is a discussing trend used all over the world to get around labor laws. In Switzerland we have this issue with a large delivery company DPD not properly paying overtime and tracking hours. They push all blame away to the sub-contractors but those drive branded delivery trucks and are required to use the scanners of the main company. Tracking hours is required by law but you can not claim unpaid work if your hours have not been tracked. The big union here is now getting the workers to track their own hours and I'm expecting a nasty court fight coming up. https://www.srf.ch/article/19516535 https://www.srf.ch/article/19516535

by cj 6y ago

yunohn 6y ago

It’s a far too common (and immoral) arrangement these days - offsets a lot of costs around direct employment, and reduces their rights and pay, and helps Amazon evade lots of responsibility.

saas_sam 6y ago
Franchises are immoral?
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  It's not a franchise. Fedex paid a steep price ($240 million) for attempting the same shenanigans (attempting to skirt proper employment classification when it was clear they were operating as Fedex) with their Ground operations [1] [2]. The more control you have over how the work is done, the less likely it is to be classified as an "independent contractor" arrangement. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fedex-settlement/fedex-to-settle-driver-lawsuits-in-20-states-for-240-million-idUSKCN0Z229Q https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fedex-settlement/fedex-to... [2] http://cwstrategies.staffingindustry.com/fedex-to-pay-228-million-right-to-control-prompts-settlement-in-ic-lawsuit/ http://cwstrategies.staffingindustry.com/fedex-to-pay-228-mi...
  - saas_sam 6y ago
    I know someone who runs an Amazon last-mile delivery service. He bought the vans. He employs the drivers. Doesn't sound like the same thing as what FedEx was doing.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      Same arrangement Fedex Ground had. The associate you mention is Amazon middle management in an arrangement meant to avoid employee classification. > The Ninth Circuit focused on FedEx’s control of the drivers despite the operating agreement referring to them as “independent contractors.” > “As a central part of its business, FedEx Ground Package System Inc. contracts with drivers to deliver packages to its customers,” the court wrote in its opinion. > “The drivers must wear FedEx uniforms, drive FedEx-approved vehicles and groom themselves according to FedEx’s appearance standards,” the opinion continues. “FedEx tells its drivers what packages to deliver, on what days, and at what times. Although drivers may operate multiple delivery routes and hire third parties to help perform their work, they may do so only with FedEx’s consent. FedEx contends its drivers are independent contractors under California law. Plaintiffs, a class of FedEx drivers in California, contend they are employees. We agree with plaintiffs.” > The court said the amount of control used by FedEx ranged from the dimensions of packing shelves on trucks to the appearance of drivers — down to their clothing choice of shoes and socks. It also said FedEx offers a “business support package” which provides drivers with uniforms, scanners and other equipment. The package is optional, but 99% of drivers purchase it, according to the court, and scanners drivers must use in package delivery are not readily available from other sources. This jives pretty closely with every Amazon driver I've spoken to. Amazon exerts too much control over the work being done for it not to be classified as an employee relationship, and their entire last mile experience for the customer depends on such control. Amazon is also responsible for designing the truck you must drive as an Amazon driver. IANAL, just making observations based on past legal precedent, current public policy, and anecdotes from Amazon workers I intentionally interact with to get ground truth.
    - varispeed 6y ago
      If he has just one client, then definitely both sides are taking a mickey. Amazon because they don't have to buy vans, be involved in employment law, paying employer taxes etc. and the driver because likely they don't pay the same tax as if they were employed.
- yunohn 6y ago
  Franchises that are basically proxy shell companies to hire 1 (to 5) people are.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

abrambleninja 6y ago

Cory Doctorow has an excellent blogpost on Amazon's delivery service partners[1] and why it's a very difficult situation for the workers to demand better working conditions. It's very eye-opening in my opinion. [1]: https://pluralistic.net/2021/03/19/the-shakedown/#weird-flex https://pluralistic.net/2021/03/19/the-shakedown/#weird-flex

varispeed 6y ago

Interesting - if an Amazon has direct control over what sub-contractor is doing, isn't the sub-contractor a de facto employee of Amazon, but because of how arrangement is made there is a substantial difference in tax to pay? Something like this in the UK is dealt by regulation called IR35.

sschueller 6y ago

This is a discussing trend used all over the world to get around labor laws. In Switzerland we have this issue with a large delivery company DPD not properly paying overtime and tracking hours. They push all blame away to the sub-contractors but those drive branded delivery trucks and are required to use the scanners of the main company. Tracking hours is required by law but you can not claim unpaid work if your hours have not been tracked. The big union here is now getting the workers to track their own hours and I'm expecting a nasty court fight coming up. https://www.srf.ch/article/19516535 https://www.srf.ch/article/19516535