4 ms·

"Most people and organizations don't have Google's problems to a significant degree" Except in this particular case, i believe the average junior Googler is fa

by bsaul 6y ago

"Most people and organizations don't have Google's problems to a significant degree" Except in this particular case, i believe the average junior Googler is far more capable of handling advanced language as the average junior employee of any regular corp. Which means go's tradeoff toward "simplicity" is probably the wisest for them as well.

blacktriangle 6y ago
Honestly I'd argue that that is more of a Google/large corporate problem. The thing about junior devs is that in order to hire a bunch of them and get anything productive out of them, you need a ton of people above them. You need to spend more time on design to give them more clear requirements, you need more senior devs to provide mentorship, you need more management. Smaller dev shops don't have that, they can only bring on 1-2 juniors at a time and hope for the best.
waynesonfire 6y ago
No, I'd argue that both are incapable, you can't teach experience. Junior Googlers are just more "dangerous" as they probably start their career on bigger problems and share with the average a similar set of "unknown unknowns". Enterprise languages, like Java and Go (in contrast to Scala or Perl) are designed to keep people on rails. This can be accomplished by for example, limiting the number of ways a problem can be solved by the primitives of the language. This is why the "most fast and break things" paradigm at Facebook didn't align with me. They basically announced that they're not concerned about these rails. Not to say it's a bad approach, FB is a very successful software company, just one that doesn't align with _my_ values. I think they've since moved away from this.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Except Go in 2021 is like Java in 2000, so a bit hard to put both on the same level.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    I get that Go doesn't have generics and is generally in the C-family of languages, but beyond that there's not much to compare--I'm shocked that anyone would even make the assertion. Go has first class functions, value types, generic slice/hashmap/channels/etc, goroutines, and type inference, and it lacks inheritance and constructors. Those different feature sets predictably breed very different programming paradigms. Notably, I recall early Java was all about inheritance and distributing your object graph arbitrarily among constructors.
brudgers 6y ago
To a first approximation comparing junior developers broadly is analogous to comparing +0, 0, and -0.
- warmwaffles 6y ago
  For very large values of 0

by bsaul 6y ago

blacktriangle 6y ago

Honestly I'd argue that that is more of a Google/large corporate problem. The thing about junior devs is that in order to hire a bunch of them and get anything productive out of them, you need a ton of people above them. You need to spend more time on design to give them more clear requirements, you need more senior devs to provide mentorship, you need more management. Smaller dev shops don't have that, they can only bring on 1-2 juniors at a time and hope for the best.

waynesonfire 6y ago

No, I'd argue that both are incapable, you can't teach experience. Junior Googlers are just more "dangerous" as they probably start their career on bigger problems and share with the average a similar set of "unknown unknowns". Enterprise languages, like Java and Go (in contrast to Scala or Perl) are designed to keep people on rails. This can be accomplished by for example, limiting the number of ways a problem can be solved by the primitives of the language. This is why the "most fast and break things" paradigm at Facebook didn't align with me. They basically announced that they're not concerned about these rails. Not to say it's a bad approach, FB is a very successful software company, just one that doesn't align with _my_ values. I think they've since moved away from this.

pjmlp 6y ago
Except Go in 2021 is like Java in 2000, so a bit hard to put both on the same level.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  I get that Go doesn't have generics and is generally in the C-family of languages, but beyond that there's not much to compare--I'm shocked that anyone would even make the assertion. Go has first class functions, value types, generic slice/hashmap/channels/etc, goroutines, and type inference, and it lacks inheritance and constructors. Those different feature sets predictably breed very different programming paradigms. Notably, I recall early Java was all about inheritance and distributing your object graph arbitrarily among constructors.

brudgers 6y ago

To a first approximation comparing junior developers broadly is analogous to comparing +0, 0, and -0.

warmwaffles 6y ago
For very large values of 0