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Apple solved this with the App Store, though — local native software with truly simple, obvious, easy installation and complete encapsulation of data. The app

Apple solved this with the App Store, though — local native software with truly simple, obvious, easy installation and complete encapsulation of data. The app store certainly makes it easy but its no where close to the easy installation and update of webapps - typing a name and hitting enter or clicking a link. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that Apple's vision of the cloud is "data in the cloud. apps are local" whereas Google's vision of the cloud is "data and apps are in the cloud"? All of Google's client-side software also comes down from the cloud the same way your data does.

brisance 15y ago
We'll have to agree to disagree. URL discovery is still a major problem, it's what made Yahoo as a human-curated index popular back in the 90s. In my admittedly anecdotal experience with seniors, many of them still have difficulty understanding the browser since they are task-oriented, rather than URL-oriented. And apps are task-oriented. URL bookmarks saved to the home screen help but are still prone to problems e.g. website alters the landing page and now the browser returns a 404. No problem for us but a very jarring experience for seniors who don't know URI. And Gruber's point is that web apps still require internet access to work, albeit with improvements like cached storage in HTML 5. Whereas apps on the mobile device already work and are already taking advantage of sensors onboard the device, but the internet (cloud) makes them even better. For example, Garageband for iOS would be really hard to do as a webapp. Not impossible, but hard.
- wunderfool 15y ago
  "URL discovery is still a major problem" come on, google search is smarter than the app store search
  - brisance 15y ago
    I made no mention comparing the quality of search results because that's a whole other topic. I'm saying the App Store has categories, "Staff Picks", "iPad App of the Week" etc and it helps in discovery, just like Yahoo did back in the day. Google would have to tread carefully here or they would step on advertisers' toes or invite anti-competitive scrutiny due to their dominance in search.
    - iaskwhy 15y ago
      Google Web Store might help.
    - MatthewPhillips 15y ago
      Google doesn't have to do this, web takes care of recommendations. We have HN, Reddit, StumbleUpon, etc.
      - ugh 15y ago
        All those things benefit both web apps and native apps.
ghshephard 15y ago
"its no where close to the easy installation" I'd beg to differ. It may not be identical, but App installation on my iPhone/iPad/Macintosh from the App Store is pretty much "Click, authorize, done"
- statictype 15y ago
  On a web app, installation and updates are basically 'open the app'. I'm not saying the iOS process isn't dead simple - it is - but its still a step behind web apps.
  - wvenable 15y ago
    Lets just presume the web is simpler than app store installation, does that difference actually matter? I'd say it doesn't. As soon as you've reached a certain level of easy becoming easier doesn't give you as much gain. The advantages of native applications certainly outweigh the tiny extra work on installation. App store installation does have one other advantage: a sense of ownership. The user feels they own the app rather than merely visiting it -- psychologically that is a powerful difference.
    - MatthewPhillips 15y ago
      This can be fixed, but the fact that iOS and Android don't have a "automatically update in the background without telling me" is insane to me. I go weeks without going into the App Store on my iPad and when I do there are usually 4 or 5 updates waiting. They could easily update in the background -- why don't they if I've given them permission?
      - yardie 15y ago
        Automatic updates is one of the features of iOS5. So, its coming
  - m_eiman 15y ago
    With a webapp, the "installation" step is usually replaced with a "register" step. So in effect "install" becomes "enter desired username and password", "check for confirmation email", "click confirmation link", "log in".

brisance 15y ago

We'll have to agree to disagree. URL discovery is still a major problem, it's what made Yahoo as a human-curated index popular back in the 90s. In my admittedly anecdotal experience with seniors, many of them still have difficulty understanding the browser since they are task-oriented, rather than URL-oriented. And apps are task-oriented. URL bookmarks saved to the home screen help but are still prone to problems e.g. website alters the landing page and now the browser returns a 404. No problem for us but a very jarring experience for seniors who don't know URI. And Gruber's point is that web apps still require internet access to work, albeit with improvements like cached storage in HTML 5. Whereas apps on the mobile device already work and are already taking advantage of sensors onboard the device, but the internet (cloud) makes them even better. For example, Garageband for iOS would be really hard to do as a webapp. Not impossible, but hard.

wunderfool 15y ago
"URL discovery is still a major problem" come on, google search is smarter than the app store search
- brisance 15y ago
  I made no mention comparing the quality of search results because that's a whole other topic. I'm saying the App Store has categories, "Staff Picks", "iPad App of the Week" etc and it helps in discovery, just like Yahoo did back in the day. Google would have to tread carefully here or they would step on advertisers' toes or invite anti-competitive scrutiny due to their dominance in search.
  - iaskwhy 15y ago
    Google Web Store might help.
  - MatthewPhillips 15y ago
    Google doesn't have to do this, web takes care of recommendations. We have HN, Reddit, StumbleUpon, etc.
    - ugh 15y ago
      All those things benefit both web apps and native apps.

ghshephard 15y ago

"its no where close to the easy installation" I'd beg to differ. It may not be identical, but App installation on my iPhone/iPad/Macintosh from the App Store is pretty much "Click, authorize, done"

statictype 15y ago
On a web app, installation and updates are basically 'open the app'. I'm not saying the iOS process isn't dead simple - it is - but its still a step behind web apps.
- wvenable 15y ago
  Lets just presume the web is simpler than app store installation, does that difference actually matter? I'd say it doesn't. As soon as you've reached a certain level of easy becoming easier doesn't give you as much gain. The advantages of native applications certainly outweigh the tiny extra work on installation. App store installation does have one other advantage: a sense of ownership. The user feels they own the app rather than merely visiting it -- psychologically that is a powerful difference.
  - MatthewPhillips 15y ago
    This can be fixed, but the fact that iOS and Android don't have a "automatically update in the background without telling me" is insane to me. I go weeks without going into the App Store on my iPad and when I do there are usually 4 or 5 updates waiting. They could easily update in the background -- why don't they if I've given them permission?
    - yardie 15y ago
      Automatic updates is one of the features of iOS5. So, its coming
- m_eiman 15y ago
  With a webapp, the "installation" step is usually replaced with a "register" step. So in effect "install" becomes "enter desired username and password", "check for confirmation email", "click confirmation link", "log in".