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> Political activism is important. Stand up for what you believe in. But political activism does not mix with an inclusive, warm, welcoming hobby community. If

> Political activism is important. Stand up for what you believe in. But political activism does not mix with an inclusive, warm, welcoming hobby community. If you feel so strongly about your political beliefs that you can't let them rest even in your knitting club, then for the sake of the knitting club you're going to either have to turn it into a political knitting club or watch it fall apart. I disagree. Just about anything else is more important and productive than political activism. Almost all political activism (in America at least) is either pointless group therapy (e.g. Women's March), astroturfing (e.g. the "election fortifiers") or actually destructive and thus evil (choose your own "mostly peaceful protestors"). Activists have a tendency to indulge a totalizing vision of their activism. Many of the most hard-core activists would see a request to tone down their activism as akin to being asked to remove their limbs. Activism has become the core identity of some of these people. And if activists' goals are actually achieved, activists usually have trouble letting go of their crusades, and so invent new ones or just become pure grifters. I can see no other explanation for why the most progressive institutions in America, universities for instance, are among those most frequently labeled as bigoted, racist, white supremacist or otherwise "problematic." Yes, highly contrarian take, but if we ended all political activism tomorrow, we'd be better off.

nerdponx 6y ago
I share your cynicism about what political activism usually is, but I find it hard to share your conclusion that we'd be better of without it.
will4274 6y ago
I can't say I agree fully with you, but there's definitely something about today's activists that seem odd. MLK protested in suits and ties to convince the american public blacks were respectable citizens who deserved equal protection under the law. When BLM rioted, activists went on TV to tell the lay public that "riots are the language of the unheard" and that white America basically deserved it. Whether that's true or not... It seems to me that the core aspect of political activism in a democracy is *convincing other people*. I see very little focus on this aspect and far more focus on accusing others of wrong think.
- unethical_ban 6y ago
  Funny you contrast MLK with... MLK. He said that quote, although he said it meaning that riots, however bad, are indeed a sign that a group feels unheard, and it's worth paying attention. I agree with your conclusion that politics is about convincing others. That takes more patience than many people seem to have, who are eager to tell the "non-woke" how wrong and bad they are if they don't immediately accept the new gospel.
- baryphonic 6y ago
  I appreciate the comment. I made an admittedly bold claim, though I do tend to believe it. Activism with skin in the game (e.g. the Tiananmen Square student protests, Vaclav Havel's dissident writings and jailing, Nelson Mandela's imprisonment, the Umbrella Movement, Mohamed Bouazizi'a self-immolation) can be extremely effective and can change the world, often for the better. America's political activists today seem to have zero skin in the game. It mostly seems like a status and power game more than an attempt to fix something. After all, if the problem was fixed, what would these activists organizations do day-to-day? Why would anyone donate to them?
  - jaegerpicker 6y ago
    How can you say they have zero skin in the game after watching video after video after video of Black people being murdered. After an elected president brags about sexual assault. After Asian hate crimes are occurring all over the country. After LGBT+ people are assaulted and or murdered. Political activists in America have reached a generational level. Minorities in America have been mistreated and repressed for hundreds of years and they need and deserve it to be fixed. Not to mention that a whole generation of TV personalities and politicians have spent AT LEAST the last 20years demonizing anyone who protests for Civil rights or climate change. To say this is an extremely privileged POV is a massive understatement IMO.
    - baryphonic 6y ago
      The irony about your comment is that you're kind of proving my point about activists. Being an activist for "minorities" (I thought I heard that was exclusionary language now?) has become a core identity for you, and anyone who questions any of the social justice Gish gallop such as this merely has a "privileged POV." Yawn.
unethical_ban 6y ago
Political activism, that is, working to influence politicians and the public mindset, is the only way society and politics change. You are saying that political change is usually unimportant, and so the homeless, the poor, and minority concerns can be cast aside. Dropping words like "evil" for any destructive activity is itself absurdly absolutist. I mean, I do believe that politics should be extracted from parts of society so we can go back to some kind of harmony, much like we don't eat food or exercise or meditate 24/7. Politics and political consideration, however important, are exhausting and we can't go on thinking about it all day every day.
krapp 6y ago
> Almost all political activism (in America at least) is either pointless group therapy (e.g. Women's March), astroturfing (e.g. the "election fortifiers") or actually destructive and thus evil (choose your own "mostly peaceful protestors"). >I can see no other explanation for why the most progressive institutions in America, universities for instance, are among those most frequently labeled as bigoted, racist, white supremacist or otherwise "problematic." It's weird how you're pretending to make a statement about political activism in general, while only casting aspersions on progressive and leftist activism, using popular right-wing pejoratives ("mostly peaceful protestors") and even "election fortifiers" which is I believe a QAnon meme. >Yes, highly contrarian take, but if we ended all political activism tomorrow, we'd be better off. It isn't at all. Pretending to be apolitical while shitting on the left is so common it's practically banal around here.
- baryphonic 6y ago
  > It's weird how you're pretending to make a statement about political activism in general, while only casting aspersions on progressive and leftist activism,[...] > using popular right-wing pejoratives ("mostly peaceful protestors")[...] The 06 January Capitol protestors were mostly peaceful, too. I chose an open-ended phrase open ended for a reason, notwithstanding the fact that many committed leftists I speak to seem unaware that riot police and tear gas were used against Capitol protestors just like the urban rioters last summer.[1] Besides, the right is entirely disorganized and has essentially no activism to speak of. When the Buffalo guy was arrested, there was no bail fund to go get him out. He's rotting in a jail cell to this day. It's a plain fact, regardless of position on the political spectrum, that the Right today is basically a joke. > [...]and even "election fortifiers" which is I believe a QAnon meme. Your belief is incorrect. I kindly ask you to retract your defamatory statement. "Fortifying" was used in a Time Magazine article entitled "The Secret History of the Shadow Campaign That Saved the 2020 Election"[2]: > That’s why the participants want the secret history of the 2020 election told, even though it sounds like a paranoid fever dream–a well-funded cabal of powerful people, ranging across industries and ideologies, working together behind the scenes to influence perceptions, change rules and laws, steer media coverage and control the flow of information. They were not rigging the election; they were fortifying it. And they believe the public needs to understand the system’s fragility in order to ensure that democracy in America endures. > It isn't at all. Pretending to be apolitical while shitting on the left is so common it's practically banal around here. I'm not sure where I pretended to be apolitical. I'm merely non-ideological, and thus reject political activism (of the contemporary American type). And the idea that HN is some right-wing troll farm is laughably funny. If only you could see the downvotes. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trump-supporters-storm-capitol-dc/2021/01/06/58afc0b8-504b-11eb-83e3-322644d82356_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trump-supporters-storm-... [2] https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/ https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/

nerdponx 6y ago

I share your cynicism about what political activism usually is, but I find it hard to share your conclusion that we'd be better of without it.

will4274 6y ago

I can't say I agree fully with you, but there's definitely something about today's activists that seem odd. MLK protested in suits and ties to convince the american public blacks were respectable citizens who deserved equal protection under the law. When BLM rioted, activists went on TV to tell the lay public that "riots are the language of the unheard" and that white America basically deserved it. Whether that's true or not... It seems to me that the core aspect of political activism in a democracy is *convincing other people*. I see very little focus on this aspect and far more focus on accusing others of wrong think.

unethical_ban 6y ago
Funny you contrast MLK with... MLK. He said that quote, although he said it meaning that riots, however bad, are indeed a sign that a group feels unheard, and it's worth paying attention. I agree with your conclusion that politics is about convincing others. That takes more patience than many people seem to have, who are eager to tell the "non-woke" how wrong and bad they are if they don't immediately accept the new gospel.
baryphonic 6y ago
I appreciate the comment. I made an admittedly bold claim, though I do tend to believe it. Activism with skin in the game (e.g. the Tiananmen Square student protests, Vaclav Havel's dissident writings and jailing, Nelson Mandela's imprisonment, the Umbrella Movement, Mohamed Bouazizi'a self-immolation) can be extremely effective and can change the world, often for the better. America's political activists today seem to have zero skin in the game. It mostly seems like a status and power game more than an attempt to fix something. After all, if the problem was fixed, what would these activists organizations do day-to-day? Why would anyone donate to them?
- jaegerpicker 6y ago
  How can you say they have zero skin in the game after watching video after video after video of Black people being murdered. After an elected president brags about sexual assault. After Asian hate crimes are occurring all over the country. After LGBT+ people are assaulted and or murdered. Political activists in America have reached a generational level. Minorities in America have been mistreated and repressed for hundreds of years and they need and deserve it to be fixed. Not to mention that a whole generation of TV personalities and politicians have spent AT LEAST the last 20years demonizing anyone who protests for Civil rights or climate change. To say this is an extremely privileged POV is a massive understatement IMO.
  - baryphonic 6y ago
    The irony about your comment is that you're kind of proving my point about activists. Being an activist for "minorities" (I thought I heard that was exclusionary language now?) has become a core identity for you, and anyone who questions any of the social justice Gish gallop such as this merely has a "privileged POV." Yawn.

unethical_ban 6y ago

Political activism, that is, working to influence politicians and the public mindset, is the only way society and politics change. You are saying that political change is usually unimportant, and so the homeless, the poor, and minority concerns can be cast aside. Dropping words like "evil" for any destructive activity is itself absurdly absolutist. I mean, I do believe that politics should be extracted from parts of society so we can go back to some kind of harmony, much like we don't eat food or exercise or meditate 24/7. Politics and political consideration, however important, are exhausting and we can't go on thinking about it all day every day.

krapp 6y ago

> Almost all political activism (in America at least) is either pointless group therapy (e.g. Women's March), astroturfing (e.g. the "election fortifiers") or actually destructive and thus evil (choose your own "mostly peaceful protestors"). >I can see no other explanation for why the most progressive institutions in America, universities for instance, are among those most frequently labeled as bigoted, racist, white supremacist or otherwise "problematic." It's weird how you're pretending to make a statement about political activism in general, while only casting aspersions on progressive and leftist activism, using popular right-wing pejoratives ("mostly peaceful protestors") and even "election fortifiers" which is I believe a QAnon meme. >Yes, highly contrarian take, but if we ended all political activism tomorrow, we'd be better off. It isn't at all. Pretending to be apolitical while shitting on the left is so common it's practically banal around here.

baryphonic 6y ago
> It's weird how you're pretending to make a statement about political activism in general, while only casting aspersions on progressive and leftist activism,[...] > using popular right-wing pejoratives ("mostly peaceful protestors")[...] The 06 January Capitol protestors were mostly peaceful, too. I chose an open-ended phrase open ended for a reason, notwithstanding the fact that many committed leftists I speak to seem unaware that riot police and tear gas were used against Capitol protestors just like the urban rioters last summer.[1] Besides, the right is entirely disorganized and has essentially no activism to speak of. When the Buffalo guy was arrested, there was no bail fund to go get him out. He's rotting in a jail cell to this day. It's a plain fact, regardless of position on the political spectrum, that the Right today is basically a joke. > [...]and even "election fortifiers" which is I believe a QAnon meme. Your belief is incorrect. I kindly ask you to retract your defamatory statement. "Fortifying" was used in a Time Magazine article entitled "The Secret History of the Shadow Campaign That Saved the 2020 Election"[2]: > That’s why the participants want the secret history of the 2020 election told, even though it sounds like a paranoid fever dream–a well-funded cabal of powerful people, ranging across industries and ideologies, working together behind the scenes to influence perceptions, change rules and laws, steer media coverage and control the flow of information. They were not rigging the election; they were fortifying it. And they believe the public needs to understand the system’s fragility in order to ensure that democracy in America endures. > It isn't at all. Pretending to be apolitical while shitting on the left is so common it's practically banal around here. I'm not sure where I pretended to be apolitical. I'm merely non-ideological, and thus reject political activism (of the contemporary American type). And the idea that HN is some right-wing troll farm is laughably funny. If only you could see the downvotes. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trump-supporters-storm-capitol-dc/2021/01/06/58afc0b8-504b-11eb-83e3-322644d82356_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trump-supporters-storm-... [2] https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/ https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/