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Thanks - I think that does explain some of the potential area of confusion. However, I don't agree that the BBC's explanation differs from what the true meaning

by spuz 6y ago

Thanks - I think that does explain some of the potential area of confusion. However, I don't agree that the BBC's explanation differs from what the true meaning is according to this Scientific American article says. The BBC article says: > The measurement from LHCb is three-sigma - meaning there is roughly a one in 1,000 chance that the measurement is a statistical coincidence My interpretation of this is "If there was no new physics, then there is a 1/1000 chance the same result could be measured by coincidence." I understand why some people may interpret this as "There is a 1/1000 chance that there is no new physics" though.

DavidSJ 6y ago
"There is a one in 1,000 chance that the measurement is a statistical coincidence", grammatically, presumes the measurement which did in fact occur and says something about the chance that a statistical coincidence did, in fact, happen. It's P(hypothesis | data). This is a classic no-no in science writing. "There is a one in 1,000 chance that the measurement would arise by statistical coincidence" uses the conditional, (implicitly) presuming a hypothesis and saying something about the chance that, under that hypothesis, such a measurement as occurred would occur. It's P(data | hypothesis).
cycomanic 6y ago
I agree, I understand the difference between the conditionals, but was trying to get what the OP was criticising. I think this is much more a interpretation of language issue than a correct/incorrect in the formal sense issue.
cycomanic 6y ago
>"There is a one in 1,000 chance that the measurement is a statistical coincidence", grammatically, presumes the measurement which did in fact occur and says something about the chance that a statistical coincidence did, in fact, happen. It's P(hypothesis | data). This is a classic no-no in science writing. >"There is a one in 1,000 chance that the measurement would arise by statistical coincidence" uses the subjunctive, (implicitly) presuming a hypothesis and saying something about the chance that, under that hypothesis, such a measurement as occurred would occur. It's P(data | hypothesis). I now see your criticism and I agree the subjunctive is much clearer. I guess my brain just converts the other wording into yours whenever I read text like that.
- Asraelite 6y ago
  Your point still stands, but technically that's not the subjunctive, it's the conditional. Actual subjunctives are only rarely used in English and often sound clunky. If you did use it it would be "There is a one in a 1,000 chance that the measurement arise by statistical coincidence". Note that it must be "arise", not "arises".
  - DavidSJ 6y ago
    Thank you, good point. My statistics is better than my linguistics. ;) I'll correct it in my comment (you're replying to someone quoting me).
  - exo-pla-net 6y ago
    Subjunctives aren't rare. They arise whenever we speculate or wish for something. "I don't think he'd appreciate you stealing his spotlight on grammatical minutia." "I wouldn't bet on it."
    - Asraelite 6y ago
      Again, both of those examples you have given are the conditional, not the subjunctive. If the clause uses "would" with its main verb, it's not the subjunctive mood. You can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_subjunctive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_subjunctive Also note that I'm specifically referring to the plain subjunctive. There is also something sometimes referred to as the "past/imperfect subjunctive" which is something different entirely.
      - exo-pla-net 6y ago
        I think "subjunctive" is used loosely. I think that I'm right in terms of descriptive diction; anything irrealis and non-imperative is often (typically?) called subjunctive in English, since we only use distinct verbs for indicative, imperative, and subjunctive moods. I think, however, that I prefer your rigorous distinctions. Moods seem to be important to human language, even if they're atrophied in English. So keeping the gate on the subjunctive vs conditional distinction points people toward a deeper understanding of how language works.

by spuz 6y ago

DavidSJ 6y ago

"There is a one in 1,000 chance that the measurement is a statistical coincidence", grammatically, presumes the measurement which did in fact occur and says something about the chance that a statistical coincidence did, in fact, happen. It's P(hypothesis | data). This is a classic no-no in science writing. "There is a one in 1,000 chance that the measurement would arise by statistical coincidence" uses the conditional, (implicitly) presuming a hypothesis and saying something about the chance that, under that hypothesis, such a measurement as occurred would occur. It's P(data | hypothesis).

cycomanic 6y ago

I agree, I understand the difference between the conditionals, but was trying to get what the OP was criticising. I think this is much more a interpretation of language issue than a correct/incorrect in the formal sense issue.

cycomanic 6y ago

>"There is a one in 1,000 chance that the measurement is a statistical coincidence", grammatically, presumes the measurement which did in fact occur and says something about the chance that a statistical coincidence did, in fact, happen. It's P(hypothesis | data). This is a classic no-no in science writing. >"There is a one in 1,000 chance that the measurement would arise by statistical coincidence" uses the subjunctive, (implicitly) presuming a hypothesis and saying something about the chance that, under that hypothesis, such a measurement as occurred would occur. It's P(data | hypothesis). I now see your criticism and I agree the subjunctive is much clearer. I guess my brain just converts the other wording into yours whenever I read text like that.

Asraelite 6y ago
Your point still stands, but technically that's not the subjunctive, it's the conditional. Actual subjunctives are only rarely used in English and often sound clunky. If you did use it it would be "There is a one in a 1,000 chance that the measurement arise by statistical coincidence". Note that it must be "arise", not "arises".
- DavidSJ 6y ago
  Thank you, good point. My statistics is better than my linguistics. ;) I'll correct it in my comment (you're replying to someone quoting me).
- exo-pla-net 6y ago
  Subjunctives aren't rare. They arise whenever we speculate or wish for something. "I don't think he'd appreciate you stealing his spotlight on grammatical minutia." "I wouldn't bet on it."
  - Asraelite 6y ago
    Again, both of those examples you have given are the conditional, not the subjunctive. If the clause uses "would" with its main verb, it's not the subjunctive mood. You can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_subjunctive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_subjunctive Also note that I'm specifically referring to the plain subjunctive. There is also something sometimes referred to as the "past/imperfect subjunctive" which is something different entirely.
    - exo-pla-net 6y ago
      I think "subjunctive" is used loosely. I think that I'm right in terms of descriptive diction; anything irrealis and non-imperative is often (typically?) called subjunctive in English, since we only use distinct verbs for indicative, imperative, and subjunctive moods. I think, however, that I prefer your rigorous distinctions. Moods seem to be important to human language, even if they're atrophied in English. So keeping the gate on the subjunctive vs conditional distinction points people toward a deeper understanding of how language works.