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A Tesla cannot make a left turn (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26542462 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26542462), which most 16 year olds and 85 ye

A Tesla cannot make a left turn (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26542462 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26542462), which most 16 year olds and 85 years drivers manage while either inebriated or not fully in control of their faculties. However we fully expect F-16 which take years of training of highly fit specimens of the human race to fly to be controlled by an AI. I somehow don't see it happening in the next two decades or atleast a decade after we have L-5 driving.

anaganisk 6y ago
May be its just regular Airliner AutoPilot, with make coffee functionality .
ChuckMcM 6y ago
I don't disagree, but the 'fit humans' has two components that AI pilots don't suffer from; blackout from G forces, and high situational awareness. That said, they can put these planes into mock dogfights with human pilots on the redflag range in Nevada and see where they have advantages and where they fall down. Personally I would expect this sort of thing to be a pilot assist long before we got to Level 3 war fighting.
- Breza 6y ago
  Agreed. Computers have been massively important to flying for decades. It's already basically impossible to fly a modern warbird without computer assistance. Here's a Hacker News-level amount of nuance for that statement: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/8049/are-fighter-jets-designed-to-be-so-inherently-unstable-that-a-human-cant-fly-on https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/8049/are-fighte...
xiphias2 6y ago
Those humans have a goal of destroying the opponent without dying. Tesla’s autopilot would be much more efficient if killing people sometimes would be OK. This is also why drones are so dangerous to the future of humanity.
- GordonS 6y ago
  I'm sure it costs a lot to train an F16 pilot, but how much does an F16 cost? I'd wager an F16 is "worth more" to the airforce than a pilot's live.
  - ElFitz 6y ago
    Well, yes and no. Where you could ramp up a plane’s production, I’d wager there’s a scarcity problem when it comes to pilots (even though you could ramp up pilot training).
  - HDMI_Cable 6y ago
    I don't know if eject seats are still used, but the use of those seems like they value the pilot's life over the F-16.
  - xiphias2 6y ago
    If they lose the war they lose many pilots and many F16s anyways, don't they?
konschubert 6y ago
Moving in air space is a well-defined problem, the rules of physics and traffic are clear and you can expect others to follow them. Traffic rules are often not well defined. And even if they are, people don't follow them to the letter, so there is this kind of fuzzy, "this is how we drive here" rule set which isn't well-defined.
TeMPOraL 6y ago
Curiously, flight is much better suited to automation than driving. It's an easier control problem. Which is why planes and space vehicles have been taking off, flying and landing on their own for the past four decades, while the equivalent isn't true for cars even today.
- hugh-avherald 6y ago
  Try _nine_ decades!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
jillesvangurp 6y ago
Well, the article is about somebody doing this (in a simulator), not talking about doing it. Of course we are talking defense contractors here, so it's hard to tell wishful thinking from reality here. But logically, they would have been working on this for quite some time as it has been an obvious thing to be throwing lots of dollars at for some decade+ or so. So, it wouldn't surprise me if this was about as real as it looks. Anyway, you can compensate for human smartness by just being unhumanly fast and compensating for their weaknesses. E.g. doing 16G turns, would kill/knock out the pilot but is probably OK from a structural point of view. Likewise, taking decisions faster than a human can take them matters when rockets are traveling towards you at several times the speed of sound. And of course maintaining situational awareness is a thing humans aren't good at when they are pulling many Gs and are dealing with a very complex battlefield. Tunnel vision, blacked out vision, etc. are all things fighter pilots have to fight against. For the same reason, most dog fights are over before they begin these days. It mostly involves rockets fired from many miles away and a game of trying to dodge them. Basically, this space is already dominated by computer operated rockets. Shooting down planes with onboard machine guns stopped being a thing mostly. Except of course for countries still flying antiquated airplanes.
- haltingproblem 6y ago
  Good points all. Removing the human does make the plan far simpler.
Dirlewanger 6y ago
This is work done by an elite research university, not a haphazard "move fast, break things" SV tech company masquerading as an automobile company.
MrFantastic 6y ago
A Tesla could make a left turn but they don't because the company doesn't want the liablity. Having to cross 3 lanes adds a lot of moving parts and you can't see a car moving 35mph in the 3rd lane when the other 2 lanes are stopped. A plane basically has to avoid the ground and other planes. The planes don't need human passengers. Humans are the planes Achilles' heel.
frankbreetz 6y ago
The physical fitness is required because of the high stress environment. Computers are obviously superior here, machines are able to outperform any human in any physical situation. There are not near as many hazards in the sky as on your drive to work, it seems flying may be the perfect use case for AI
Shivetya 6y ago
FWIW, the upcoming software which has about two thousand beta testers is making left turns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uClWlVCwHsI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uClWlVCwHsI This is not my video

anaganisk 6y ago

May be its just regular Airliner AutoPilot, with make coffee functionality .

ChuckMcM 6y ago

I don't disagree, but the 'fit humans' has two components that AI pilots don't suffer from; blackout from G forces, and high situational awareness. That said, they can put these planes into mock dogfights with human pilots on the redflag range in Nevada and see where they have advantages and where they fall down. Personally I would expect this sort of thing to be a pilot assist long before we got to Level 3 war fighting.

Breza 6y ago
Agreed. Computers have been massively important to flying for decades. It's already basically impossible to fly a modern warbird without computer assistance. Here's a Hacker News-level amount of nuance for that statement: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/8049/are-fighter-jets-designed-to-be-so-inherently-unstable-that-a-human-cant-fly-on https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/8049/are-fighte...

xiphias2 6y ago

Those humans have a goal of destroying the opponent without dying. Tesla’s autopilot would be much more efficient if killing people sometimes would be OK. This is also why drones are so dangerous to the future of humanity.

GordonS 6y ago
I'm sure it costs a lot to train an F16 pilot, but how much does an F16 cost? I'd wager an F16 is "worth more" to the airforce than a pilot's live.
- ElFitz 6y ago
  Well, yes and no. Where you could ramp up a plane’s production, I’d wager there’s a scarcity problem when it comes to pilots (even though you could ramp up pilot training).
- HDMI_Cable 6y ago
  I don't know if eject seats are still used, but the use of those seems like they value the pilot's life over the F-16.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  If they lose the war they lose many pilots and many F16s anyways, don't they?

konschubert 6y ago

Moving in air space is a well-defined problem, the rules of physics and traffic are clear and you can expect others to follow them. Traffic rules are often not well defined. And even if they are, people don't follow them to the letter, so there is this kind of fuzzy, "this is how we drive here" rule set which isn't well-defined.

TeMPOraL 6y ago

Curiously, flight is much better suited to automation than driving. It's an easier control problem. Which is why planes and space vehicles have been taking off, flying and landing on their own for the past four decades, while the equivalent isn't true for cars even today.

hugh-avherald 6y ago
Try _nine_ decades!
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

jillesvangurp 6y ago

Well, the article is about somebody doing this (in a simulator), not talking about doing it. Of course we are talking defense contractors here, so it's hard to tell wishful thinking from reality here. But logically, they would have been working on this for quite some time as it has been an obvious thing to be throwing lots of dollars at for some decade+ or so. So, it wouldn't surprise me if this was about as real as it looks. Anyway, you can compensate for human smartness by just being unhumanly fast and compensating for their weaknesses. E.g. doing 16G turns, would kill/knock out the pilot but is probably OK from a structural point of view. Likewise, taking decisions faster than a human can take them matters when rockets are traveling towards you at several times the speed of sound. And of course maintaining situational awareness is a thing humans aren't good at when they are pulling many Gs and are dealing with a very complex battlefield. Tunnel vision, blacked out vision, etc. are all things fighter pilots have to fight against. For the same reason, most dog fights are over before they begin these days. It mostly involves rockets fired from many miles away and a game of trying to dodge them. Basically, this space is already dominated by computer operated rockets. Shooting down planes with onboard machine guns stopped being a thing mostly. Except of course for countries still flying antiquated airplanes.

haltingproblem 6y ago
Good points all. Removing the human does make the plan far simpler.

Dirlewanger 6y ago

This is work done by an elite research university, not a haphazard "move fast, break things" SV tech company masquerading as an automobile company.

MrFantastic 6y ago

A Tesla could make a left turn but they don't because the company doesn't want the liablity. Having to cross 3 lanes adds a lot of moving parts and you can't see a car moving 35mph in the 3rd lane when the other 2 lanes are stopped. A plane basically has to avoid the ground and other planes. The planes don't need human passengers. Humans are the planes Achilles' heel.

frankbreetz 6y ago

The physical fitness is required because of the high stress environment. Computers are obviously superior here, machines are able to outperform any human in any physical situation. There are not near as many hazards in the sky as on your drive to work, it seems flying may be the perfect use case for AI

Shivetya 6y ago

FWIW, the upcoming software which has about two thousand beta testers is making left turns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uClWlVCwHsI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uClWlVCwHsI This is not my video