4 ms·

The way I generally imagine interoperability with larger and more complex applications is that providers can implement their own extensions and optional feature

by ve55 6y ago

The way I generally imagine interoperability with larger and more complex applications is that providers can implement their own extensions and optional features, but that the most basic data elements are generally isomorphic. Would I expect Discord server permissions to be a shared protocol with ease, perhaps not. But every chat app we use has the same basic fields for a message such as 'id', 'timestamp', and 'text'. Our entire ecosystem under the chat application is based upon interoperability, from Ethernet to IP to TCP to HTTP to even HTML (note how you use a single web browser to use all of your favorite websites!), so I don't want to be too quick to rule out that it's impossible just because it is difficult. I would, however, agree that the incentives for it rarely exist. But with proper incentives, I'd say we could achieve some pretty amazing protocols for a lot of modern use cases.

SilverRed 6y ago
The problem is, this kind of thing becomes annoying for users very quickly. When you use Discord, you expect that everyone has all of the features available and that moderation tools work properly everywhere. Lets say your friend is using telegram which is bridged to discord, now you want to invite them to a private group in the discord server, oh but you can't because telegram doesn't support discord roles. And then on telegram you try to open an encrypted chat with someone on IRC, but their irc client doesn't support that. Users don't care about talking to people cross platform as much as they care about everything working properly. Its easy enough to have 3 messaging apps on your phone.
- ve55 6y ago
  Mostly agree, although I do still think it's solvable in theory, e.g. if chat platforms had strong incentives to implement the same popular feature sets (for example, think of how many websites implement various optional HTML features such as metadata tags, since it helps them on social media, chat applications, search engine results, and so on).
  - SilverRed 6y ago
    I think a federated system is probably possible. If Matrix comes out with a killer server and client combo in the next few years, it could take off and really work. But I think if too many server implementations are created, they will end up in a state where its not possible to add new features anymore because a large percent of the user base won't be able to use them because their server implementation does not support them. Having compatibility between systems like between discord and telegram is just going to be a nightmare no matter what you do since they both want to decide on their own what the features should be.
- LinuxBender 6y ago
  You can use OTR [1] with some IRC clients to get E2EE. That said, you can also get E2EE on Discord if willing to violate their AUP using BetterDiscord [2] + DiscordCrypt [3]. That it violates their terms should be a signal they need your data to have value. [1] - https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/ https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/ [2] - https://github.com/rauenzi/BetterDiscordApp https://github.com/rauenzi/BetterDiscordApp [3] - https://gitlab.com/leogx9r/DiscordCrypt https://gitlab.com/leogx9r/DiscordCrypt

by ve55 6y ago

SilverRed 6y ago

The problem is, this kind of thing becomes annoying for users very quickly. When you use Discord, you expect that everyone has all of the features available and that moderation tools work properly everywhere. Lets say your friend is using telegram which is bridged to discord, now you want to invite them to a private group in the discord server, oh but you can't because telegram doesn't support discord roles. And then on telegram you try to open an encrypted chat with someone on IRC, but their irc client doesn't support that. Users don't care about talking to people cross platform as much as they care about everything working properly. Its easy enough to have 3 messaging apps on your phone.

ve55 6y ago
Mostly agree, although I do still think it's solvable in theory, e.g. if chat platforms had strong incentives to implement the same popular feature sets (for example, think of how many websites implement various optional HTML features such as metadata tags, since it helps them on social media, chat applications, search engine results, and so on).
- SilverRed 6y ago
  I think a federated system is probably possible. If Matrix comes out with a killer server and client combo in the next few years, it could take off and really work. But I think if too many server implementations are created, they will end up in a state where its not possible to add new features anymore because a large percent of the user base won't be able to use them because their server implementation does not support them. Having compatibility between systems like between discord and telegram is just going to be a nightmare no matter what you do since they both want to decide on their own what the features should be.
LinuxBender 6y ago
You can use OTR [1] with some IRC clients to get E2EE. That said, you can also get E2EE on Discord if willing to violate their AUP using BetterDiscord [2] + DiscordCrypt [3]. That it violates their terms should be a signal they need your data to have value. [1] - https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/ https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/ [2] - https://github.com/rauenzi/BetterDiscordApp https://github.com/rauenzi/BetterDiscordApp [3] - https://gitlab.com/leogx9r/DiscordCrypt https://gitlab.com/leogx9r/DiscordCrypt