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I have said everything and I have nothing to add. All I can say is, it is easy to defend unfairness when it benefits oneself, rather than when it hurts them. Yo

I have said everything and I have nothing to add. All I can say is, it is easy to defend unfairness when it benefits oneself, rather than when it hurts them. You see the same thing with the discussions about structural racism, when those who benefit from the existing system defend the status quo, not because they are moustache-twirling villains, but because human mind has a way of convincing them what is in their benefit is what is good and just. Rich people genuinely believe reducing taxes on the rich benefits everyone; lobbyists truly believe in what they lobby for; etc. As someone on the other end of this, I cannot agree with your standpoint. "Countries should secure vaccines for all their citizens before exporting any vaccine" translates to "in an ideal world a few thousand more Canadians would die to save a dozen or so Americans/British/Europeans, and it's all fair and just" because that's the final outcome of the policies you advocate for. I imagine you are looking at this from the POV of someone who benefits from this (perhaps you are a resident of US or UK) so you have convinced yourself this is the best approach. I cannot agree. > For every elderly person they vaccinate in some other country, it's one elderly or at-risk person in the E.U. who isn't getting vaccinated. No. US is saying "no vaccine for anyone else until we have vaccine for every American" not just elderly Americans. While the US is busy putting vaccines in stockpile for 16 years olds, other nations' 90 years olds will die.

ericmay 6y ago
Great. Now you're trying to lump me in with "rich people" and "racists"? Do better. > "Countries should secure vaccines for all their citizens before exporting any vaccine" ... why shouldn't they? Does a country have a duty to protect its people from harm? If my country isn't willing to put my life before everyone else in the world what's the point? And why are you drawing a line at vaccines? Why isn't Germany or France paying for minimum wage across the world? Why isn't the German army full time engaged in saving people in war-torn countries? Why isn't the E.U. giving free medicine to all people across the world? I'm all for abolishing nation states. I get it. But let's not sit here and act like the U.S. is some big bad nationalistic monster here when you're just picking an arbitrary (and potentially convenient) line to draw. > No. Yes? Has Europe vaccinated all at-risk people and elderly? If not, then staunchly yes they are in fact sacrificing their own. There aren't enough vaccines to go around. > While the US is busy putting vaccines in stockpile for 16 years olds, other nations' 90 years olds will die. One could argue that they've lived a good life ya know? In the medical community the elderly are sacrificed to save the young all else being equal. But while the U.S. might be sacrificing 90 year olds in, idk, Thailand, the E.U. is sacrificing 90 year olds in the E.U.. > I imagine you are looking at this from the POV of someone who benefits from this How could I not be and why would that matter? Your challenge is in the words used in the discussion. A rich person can be right about something even if they're rich. Personally I have no illusions here. The U.S. is the giant in the room. There was no doubt in my mind that Americans were going to be vaccinated and vaccinated above all others in the world. It's exactly how a nation state operates. I wouldn't expect a nation state to sacrifice its own citizens for others in a scenario like this, though that hasn't always been the case. Why is China vaccinating 74 million of its own people? Why aren't they sending those vaccines to North Korea or Venezuela? So nationalistic!
- spoonjim 6y ago
  Should the US government choose a policy that allows one American to die or a policy that allows 1 billion non-Americans to die? To many, the answer is obvious.
  - nec4b 6y ago
    Would you save your kid from dying if that meant 10 other strangers would die instead?
    - smnrchrds 6y ago
      The real number is 7900:1, not 10:1. Also, you can flip you statement and come to a difference conclusion. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investi...
    - spoonjim 6y ago
      I would save my kid if it meant every other person on Earth dying. But government isn’t our daddy and can hopefully make more dispassionate decisions.

ericmay 6y ago

Great. Now you're trying to lump me in with "rich people" and "racists"? Do better. > "Countries should secure vaccines for all their citizens before exporting any vaccine" ... why shouldn't they? Does a country have a duty to protect its people from harm? If my country isn't willing to put my life before everyone else in the world what's the point? And why are you drawing a line at vaccines? Why isn't Germany or France paying for minimum wage across the world? Why isn't the German army full time engaged in saving people in war-torn countries? Why isn't the E.U. giving free medicine to all people across the world? I'm all for abolishing nation states. I get it. But let's not sit here and act like the U.S. is some big bad nationalistic monster here when you're just picking an arbitrary (and potentially convenient) line to draw. > No. Yes? Has Europe vaccinated all at-risk people and elderly? If not, then staunchly yes they are in fact sacrificing their own. There aren't enough vaccines to go around. > While the US is busy putting vaccines in stockpile for 16 years olds, other nations' 90 years olds will die. One could argue that they've lived a good life ya know? In the medical community the elderly are sacrificed to save the young all else being equal. But while the U.S. might be sacrificing 90 year olds in, idk, Thailand, the E.U. is sacrificing 90 year olds in the E.U.. > I imagine you are looking at this from the POV of someone who benefits from this How could I not be and why would that matter? Your challenge is in the words used in the discussion. A rich person can be right about something even if they're rich. Personally I have no illusions here. The U.S. is the giant in the room. There was no doubt in my mind that Americans were going to be vaccinated and vaccinated above all others in the world. It's exactly how a nation state operates. I wouldn't expect a nation state to sacrifice its own citizens for others in a scenario like this, though that hasn't always been the case. Why is China vaccinating 74 million of its own people? Why aren't they sending those vaccines to North Korea or Venezuela? So nationalistic!

spoonjim 6y ago
Should the US government choose a policy that allows one American to die or a policy that allows 1 billion non-Americans to die? To many, the answer is obvious.
- nec4b 6y ago
  Would you save your kid from dying if that meant 10 other strangers would die instead?
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    The real number is 7900:1, not 10:1. Also, you can flip you statement and come to a difference conclusion. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investi...
  - spoonjim 6y ago
    I would save my kid if it meant every other person on Earth dying. But government isn’t our daddy and can hopefully make more dispassionate decisions.