4 ms·

A book that goes deeper into this conversation is The Color of Money: Black Banks and the Racial Wealth Gap Well worth the read, the story had a lot of nuances

A book that goes deeper into this conversation is The Color of Money: Black Banks and the Racial Wealth Gap Well worth the read, the story had a lot of nuances https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34758210 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34758210

Lammy 6y ago
Will check out; thanks!
mc32 6y ago
That raises a question. How do other impoverished groups escape the poverty trap more quickly? Historically Chinese and other immigrants's needs were served by their own official and unofficial institutions. What can be done to keep dollars within a community to grow wealth within?
- vkou 6y ago
  Not living in an environment where everything can be taken away from you through one bad interaction with say, a policeman helps. Having a stable family with positive role models, preferably one not torn apart by brushes with the justice system helps, too. These kinds of problems get inherited from generation to generation, even if (a damn big if) the current generation were not directly subjected to any of the original racist cases thereof.
  - mc32 6y ago
    Agree... I think unfortunately for multi-generational Americans there is a weird stigma when you come from certain backgrounds --some people escape them, but not most. Immigrants don't usually have this stigma and burden. They come for the opportunity which they believe comes with putting in hours or work and study. If you're second generation and greater, you assume many Americanisms like you're entitled to American things without the hard work. Immigrants are willing to sacrifice a generation so that the next might succeed. Quite a few of my HS cohort didn't have it in them to put in hard work. They wanted to hang out, play, skip school, go to the mall, smoke weed, get beer, etc. Kids of recent immigrants were not like that, by and large.
    - reducesuffering 6y ago
      You hit a note with me about your American upbringing because I've had the same thoughts about mine but hadn't seen it hit it on the head like you have. American youth culture doesn't really value hard work and intellect. I know media like movies has a hand in this portrayal but I'm not sure it's really intentional like you allude to. I still wonder what it really is that some of us make it out into well paying careers while most of my HS cohort also mostly coasts on lackluster degrees and jobs. Race hasn't been any common thread in outcomes I've seen intra-high school, whereas the biggest differences seem to occur between high schools.
      - Lammy 6y ago
        > American youth culture doesn't really value hard work and intellect. They would be foolish to value those things when they can look around the world at large and see how success vs failure is pretty much some combination of luck and network/nepotism.
        mc32 6y ago
        Kind of... 1st gen Americans retain the drive from their parents’ cultures and do better. But rivers flow downhill. While I’m not advocating the Chinese entrance exam system, we’re the polar opposite where being lazy is cool. Look at all the youth drifting to LA dreaming of making it big. Some of that is going to YouTube/Instagram type platforms but it’s still a one in a million shot at glamorous success rather than steadfast hard work for a steady career (we do have physicians and lawyers and MBAs who resemble the steadfast attitude but it’s a small slice of society) we’re just not good at instilling this culture in our youth as well as other cultures do.
- Lammy 6y ago
  I feel like it goes way beyond "impoverished" when the oppression and exploitation of free labor from a particular group is woven into hundreds of years of cultural DNA of the country, right from the very beginning written into the founding documents of South Carolina in the 1660s: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/nc05.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/nc05.asp (section 110) There are so many intersecting social issues too, like America's experiment with alcohol prohibition in the 1920s and anti-prostitution laws that to this day are endangering women, enabling trafficking, and being used as justification for ever-increasing surveillance. You can guess which types of "open minded" businesses back in the day tended to host jazz music and be more welcoming to blacks. Most people in San Francisco, for example, know of the Fillmore District but probably not of Terrific Street: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrific_Street#Demise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrific_Street#Demise Or the whole "Red Scare" McCarthyism thing, Hollywood codes, and anti-labor-union activities in the 20th century: https://isreview.org/issue/1/communist-party-and-black-liberation-1930s https://isreview.org/issue/1/communist-party-and-black-liber... I don't think this can be truly addressed without somehow dethroning and replacing the ruling egregore of America, but it is us and we are it.
  - mc32 6y ago
    I can't speak to cultural DNA. But I guess we could test it by looking at kids who at a young age moved to a different country and whether that cultural DNA sticks. As I mentioned elsewhere, I think the media and entertainment have a hand in this and the establishment does not care --they want cheap labor. So on the one hand it's Fast Times at Ridgemont High, on the other we big tech and others want American kids to be dedicated to study like Chinese or Indian kids. Movies and Media pretty much indoctrinate kids to be carefree and do what you want without consequences. (If media had no influence on people, people would not call for diversity in role models, etc)
    - Lammy 6y ago
      > I think the media and entertainment have a hand in this and the establishment does not care I agree, but I think the establishment does care quite a lot. That's what I was getting at when describing my personal view of the "establishment" as a kind of conscious entity, not exactly what I would call human, but conscious all the same. Like a corporation where harmful decisions end up being no particular individual's "fault" because every individual contributed but a sliver of the final thoughtform, individuals doing their best but who exist in a space where the scope of possibility is already narrowed for them in a way they might not even notice. That's also why the US media industry and cultural exports are so important here. My personal view of a country is descriptive rather than prescriptive, that borders are implicit based on the speed that ideas can travel, and the US media-exported culture was the dominant one when global instant communication became possible. Makes me think about the esoteric outcomes of the copyright wars too. The big bad RIAA/MPAA get to be the boogeyman and absorb all of my nerd-hate-energy, but the outcome ensures that only current-generation media with establishment-approved themes makes it to our eyes and our ears.
- marc__1 6y ago
  That is a great question and one that the book speaks about. Some points to consider without going too deep: - Italians and other European communities also faced with xenophobia and racism. Italians even founded 'the bank of Italy' (which is now BofA) because there were lack of institutions who financed and provided debt to them. Some laws have deliberately pushed to integrate white europeans to 'white american' society. - Blacks had and still have to face systemic ('redlining' districts, 'G.I Bill, 'Civil Rights', etc) and unofficial racism. As a result, Black-owned banks typically face larger cost of debt, have larger liquidity requirements (small deposits and shorter withdraw periods) and more strict mortgage rules. We all know what happened. PS: there is still a lot of poverty traps for other immigrants and minority groups. We are still far away from what needs to be done
  - deek 6y ago
    Also of note are the Landsmanschaft and Jewish mutual aid societies, especially prevalent in early 20th century NYC. Contrary to stereotype many Jewish immigrants came here poor and Talmud encourages (requires?) an observant Jew who is able to lend money interest-free to help others get on their feet.

Lammy 6y ago

Will check out; thanks!

mc32 6y ago

That raises a question. How do other impoverished groups escape the poverty trap more quickly? Historically Chinese and other immigrants's needs were served by their own official and unofficial institutions. What can be done to keep dollars within a community to grow wealth within?

vkou 6y ago
Not living in an environment where everything can be taken away from you through one bad interaction with say, a policeman helps. Having a stable family with positive role models, preferably one not torn apart by brushes with the justice system helps, too. These kinds of problems get inherited from generation to generation, even if (a damn big if) the current generation were not directly subjected to any of the original racist cases thereof.
- mc32 6y ago
  Agree... I think unfortunately for multi-generational Americans there is a weird stigma when you come from certain backgrounds --some people escape them, but not most. Immigrants don't usually have this stigma and burden. They come for the opportunity which they believe comes with putting in hours or work and study. If you're second generation and greater, you assume many Americanisms like you're entitled to American things without the hard work. Immigrants are willing to sacrifice a generation so that the next might succeed. Quite a few of my HS cohort didn't have it in them to put in hard work. They wanted to hang out, play, skip school, go to the mall, smoke weed, get beer, etc. Kids of recent immigrants were not like that, by and large.
  - reducesuffering 6y ago
    You hit a note with me about your American upbringing because I've had the same thoughts about mine but hadn't seen it hit it on the head like you have. American youth culture doesn't really value hard work and intellect. I know media like movies has a hand in this portrayal but I'm not sure it's really intentional like you allude to. I still wonder what it really is that some of us make it out into well paying careers while most of my HS cohort also mostly coasts on lackluster degrees and jobs. Race hasn't been any common thread in outcomes I've seen intra-high school, whereas the biggest differences seem to occur between high schools.
    - Lammy 6y ago
      > American youth culture doesn't really value hard work and intellect. They would be foolish to value those things when they can look around the world at large and see how success vs failure is pretty much some combination of luck and network/nepotism.
      - mc32 6y ago
        Kind of... 1st gen Americans retain the drive from their parents’ cultures and do better. But rivers flow downhill. While I’m not advocating the Chinese entrance exam system, we’re the polar opposite where being lazy is cool. Look at all the youth drifting to LA dreaming of making it big. Some of that is going to YouTube/Instagram type platforms but it’s still a one in a million shot at glamorous success rather than steadfast hard work for a steady career (we do have physicians and lawyers and MBAs who resemble the steadfast attitude but it’s a small slice of society) we’re just not good at instilling this culture in our youth as well as other cultures do.
Lammy 6y ago
I feel like it goes way beyond "impoverished" when the oppression and exploitation of free labor from a particular group is woven into hundreds of years of cultural DNA of the country, right from the very beginning written into the founding documents of South Carolina in the 1660s: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/nc05.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/nc05.asp (section 110) There are so many intersecting social issues too, like America's experiment with alcohol prohibition in the 1920s and anti-prostitution laws that to this day are endangering women, enabling trafficking, and being used as justification for ever-increasing surveillance. You can guess which types of "open minded" businesses back in the day tended to host jazz music and be more welcoming to blacks. Most people in San Francisco, for example, know of the Fillmore District but probably not of Terrific Street: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrific_Street#Demise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrific_Street#Demise Or the whole "Red Scare" McCarthyism thing, Hollywood codes, and anti-labor-union activities in the 20th century: https://isreview.org/issue/1/communist-party-and-black-liberation-1930s https://isreview.org/issue/1/communist-party-and-black-liber... I don't think this can be truly addressed without somehow dethroning and replacing the ruling egregore of America, but it is us and we are it.
- mc32 6y ago
  I can't speak to cultural DNA. But I guess we could test it by looking at kids who at a young age moved to a different country and whether that cultural DNA sticks. As I mentioned elsewhere, I think the media and entertainment have a hand in this and the establishment does not care --they want cheap labor. So on the one hand it's Fast Times at Ridgemont High, on the other we big tech and others want American kids to be dedicated to study like Chinese or Indian kids. Movies and Media pretty much indoctrinate kids to be carefree and do what you want without consequences. (If media had no influence on people, people would not call for diversity in role models, etc)
  - Lammy 6y ago
    > I think the media and entertainment have a hand in this and the establishment does not care I agree, but I think the establishment does care quite a lot. That's what I was getting at when describing my personal view of the "establishment" as a kind of conscious entity, not exactly what I would call human, but conscious all the same. Like a corporation where harmful decisions end up being no particular individual's "fault" because every individual contributed but a sliver of the final thoughtform, individuals doing their best but who exist in a space where the scope of possibility is already narrowed for them in a way they might not even notice. That's also why the US media industry and cultural exports are so important here. My personal view of a country is descriptive rather than prescriptive, that borders are implicit based on the speed that ideas can travel, and the US media-exported culture was the dominant one when global instant communication became possible. Makes me think about the esoteric outcomes of the copyright wars too. The big bad RIAA/MPAA get to be the boogeyman and absorb all of my nerd-hate-energy, but the outcome ensures that only current-generation media with establishment-approved themes makes it to our eyes and our ears.
marc__1 6y ago
That is a great question and one that the book speaks about. Some points to consider without going too deep: - Italians and other European communities also faced with xenophobia and racism. Italians even founded 'the bank of Italy' (which is now BofA) because there were lack of institutions who financed and provided debt to them. Some laws have deliberately pushed to integrate white europeans to 'white american' society. - Blacks had and still have to face systemic ('redlining' districts, 'G.I Bill, 'Civil Rights', etc) and unofficial racism. As a result, Black-owned banks typically face larger cost of debt, have larger liquidity requirements (small deposits and shorter withdraw periods) and more strict mortgage rules. We all know what happened. PS: there is still a lot of poverty traps for other immigrants and minority groups. We are still far away from what needs to be done
- deek 6y ago
  Also of note are the Landsmanschaft and Jewish mutual aid societies, especially prevalent in early 20th century NYC. Contrary to stereotype many Jewish immigrants came here poor and Talmud encourages (requires?) an observant Jew who is able to lend money interest-free to help others get on their feet.