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Setting Up Arch Linux with KDE Plasma in Windows Subsystem for Linux 2
- pgtruesdell 6y agoThis is amazing on a technical level and a kind of horrifying all at the same time.
- qwerty456127 6y agoWhy? WSL1 was kind of interesting indeed, but WSL2 is just a VM, isn't it?
- pgtruesdell 6y agoYes, technically it is, but it's the integration that makes it interesting. Plus theres the simple reality that Microsoft's got native APIs in Windows that enable running a linux vm with a KDE window alongside the standard windows environment. Microsoft has really come a long way and that's what's really amazing and kind of disorienting.
- qbasic_forever 6y agoYou've been able to run Linux in Hyper-V for a decade now though, it's not really anything new beyond the client-side integration.
- beefbroccoli 6y agoWSL2 uses it's own init system - only one kernel (plus a tiny initrd) is virtualized by hyper-v; each subsequent linux instance (distribution) is containerized. There's additional facilities that handle resource allocation dynamically vs the user specifying a static amount during VM creation. These (and more) result in the end-user interacting with WSL2 the same way they would any normal application. To think of it as simply a VM isn't quite correct.
- qbasic_forever 6y agoSure but I could just run Ubuntu and containerd in a VM and it's the same thing. Or just run k8s instead...
- beefbroccoli 6y agoNot quite. WSL2 dynamically uses resources as needed (`vmmem`), whereas a traditional VM requires allocating a fixed amount of RAM and CPU from the host machine.
- indigodaddy 6y agoSo I fired up Ubuntu first for my current WSL2... then I installed a Kali distribution.. are you saying that the Kali instance is really just a container inside the Ubuntu WSL2?
- beefbroccoli 6y agoNo. A minimal initrd + kernel is virtualized. Both Ubuntu and Kali are containers.
- indigodaddy 6y agoAh gotcha. Neat stuff.
- merb 6y agoon hyper-v windows is kind of a vm aswell.
- qbasic_forever 6y agoI'm kinda curious if in some wild future WSL3 ends up being Windows completely ditching the NT kernel for linux kernel and building up wine to be a first class Windows API emulator. It's just increasingly silly in the Azure and server space to be running Windows--you lose all the benefits of the container ecosystem and have all the baggage of decades of windows cruft (yes I know windows containers exist--no one uses them). Desktop usage has been in decline forever and I have to imagine they could get the 90% of windows API apps left that matter to work great on wine. It would give Microsoft a huge boost to get back in ARM by building on the linux kernel and its great support vs. windows ARM very limited set of qualcomm and a handful of other chips.
- gpanders 6y agoAFAIK Windows is still one of Microsoft’s golden geese. If they transitioned to Linux, they’d lose out on all that sweet, sweet licensing revenue. Which makes this seem unlikely to me.
- qbasic_forever 6y agoLast I heard internally there hasn't even been an official Windows OS team for the last couple years after Myerson left. It's been divvied up and split apart into parts of Azure, etc.
- jussij 6y agoThe OP's point is Microsoft is still making billions of dollars selling millions of Windows annual licences to both personnel and corporate users. If they were to discontinue Windows they would just be throwing away those billions of dollars in annual income. Since Windows continues to make Microsoft such large amounts of 'easy money' they would be stupid to not keep pushing it out to customers.
- boogies 6y agoNot a new idea, see eg. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24599397 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24599397
- cbeley 6y agoChromeOS's Linux support is even more streamlined than Windows's approach. You enable it, the container is automatically created (though, it is possible to install other distros -- but you void official ChromeOS support), and then graphical apps just work. All window management works across Linux, Android, and ChromeOS apps seamlessly, and even the open with dialog in the ChromeOS file manager shows apps across Linux, Android, and ChromeOS. The app launcher also includes Linux apps. One unique "feature" I like about the setup is how easy it is to just delete the container and start-over if I'm so inclined. I have an elaborate set of scripts to bootstrap a newly created Linux container on ChromeOS -- if anything goes wrong, I can just delete the container and re-run the bootstrap scripts. I'm a big fan of where ChromeOS has headed and I like the containerized approach to the problem a lot. It's extremely close to getting to the point where I'd consider ChromeOS over MacOS for a work laptop, especially since they added Desk/workspaces support. I use ChromeOS exclusively at home and for personal dev now.
- 29athrowaway 6y ago1) Embrace 2) Extend <- You are here 3) Extinguish
- ttt0 6y agoJust install Linux.
- _joel 6y agoI had running battles with a previous employer's IT department as we wanted to install linux (being developers in a large non-technical company) as we were deploying to linux targets. Unfortunately the powers that be were very slow/disinterested in helping so WSL was pretty much the only route to have something still serviceable. Shadow IT wouldn't have cut it.
- munchbunny 6y agoI have a full blown Linux install on dual-boot, but for my purposes (gaming and some development on Windows, some development on Linux) it's honestly just easier to have WSL1/WSL2 around so that I can have both OSes around always, rather than having to reboot to switch.
- uep 6y agoFor those purposes, I run Windows in a VM? In my case, the only reason I even need to run it at all, is that my employer has some software that requires it.
- fiddlerwoaroof 6y agoQubes can do the opposite, I think.
- reificator 6y agoWhat is the gaming experience like on Qubes for modern games? What about older games? Or VR?
- reificator 6y agoThis is an earnest question for the record.
- jamesu 6y agoWould be interested to see some guide on supporting 3d acceleration. Wasn’t there some announcement last year they were sticking some d3d layer in wsl2?
- opencl 6y agoThey did, and it is pretty much useless for all currently existing Linux software because it all uses GL or Vulkan. You can write Linux applications using DX12 and they will run on the GPU in WSL2 but obviously they will not work on native Linux. Maybe someone will write the inverse of dxvk to allow Vulkan or GL apps to run on top of the DX12 driver.
- lights0123 6y ago> Maybe someone will write the inverse of dxvk to allow Vulkan or GL apps to run on top of the DX12 driver. Microsoft did. Mesa already has OpenGL to DX12 conversion, and they're working on Vulkan. https://docs.mesa3d.org/drivers/d3d12.html https://docs.mesa3d.org/drivers/d3d12.html
- AaronFriel 6y agoA native method of running GUI applications in WSL2 is coming, I believe it'll be in GA in the Fall 2021 release: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/whats-new-in-the-windows-subsystem-for-linux-september-2020/#gui-apps https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/whats-new-in-the-... XDC 2020 talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2mnbyRgXkY&t=7975s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2mnbyRgXkY&t=7975s For Windows Insiders running preview builds, I believe some of the pieces are present but not preconfigured. The XDC 2020 conference talk discusses the advantages of the built-in support, including fewer memory copies and lower latency.
- gerdesj 6y ago"but the Arch community isn't onboard with the concept of WSL, or they aren't exactly comfortable with how easy WSL makes Linux installations for Windows users." That's a bit disingenuous. WSL is generally irrelevant to a Linux user. I don't hear many discussions about pacman or yay amongst Windows users. OK, better analogy: I don't hear much about QEMU discussed by Windows users. Good effort and nicely written up. I happen to be a PHB that uses Arch and KDE (since I managed to get something like KDE 2.something to compile on my Slackware powered Pentium II back in the day.) I'm also a Windows sysadmin with 30 odd years under me belly errr belt.
- 1_player 6y agoIt is not disingenuous. WSL is a taboo term in the Arch Linux community, for one reason or the other. If you search for it in the Wiki, you get redirected to the Code of Conduct. It is less about being irrelevant and more of a "we do not want to deal with that in any official capacity because of unspecified reasons."
- chungy 6y agoDo you have an citation for it being taboo? The whole structure of Arch, by contrast, makes having one-click installable images extraordinarily likely to be broken just for being out of date.
- 1_player 6y agoI do not know WHY it is taboo. I know it is because the only official resource given for the WSL term is a code of conduct document with no further explanation. Draw your own conclusion, I ain't got more than that.
- krick 6y agoWell, being redirected to the Code of Conduct when you search for WSL seems enough of a citation to me. Kind of surprised of such a behaviour of arch community, to be honest. Usually, it's one of the user-friendliest knowledge-bases on the Internet.
- entropie 6y agoThe site seems to switch automatically to night mode and is very hard to read generally. Not speaking for the disqus part, thats not readable at all. https://i.imgur.com/B7r2NMy.png https://i.imgur.com/B7r2NMy.png
- thomond 6y agoThe font size is mostly way too small. I don't have the same issue with the Discus comments though https://imgur.com/M8ejyUq.png https://imgur.com/M8ejyUq.png
- 1_player 6y agoLooks like they're using the default LaTeX font which is OK in print and awful on computer screens.
- rashil2000 6y agoHey, thanks for the feedback! I'll get to work on the font right on. Regarding the `prefers-color-scheme` part, I haven't extensively tested on Firefox, but it works really well on Chromium-ish browsers.
- Black101 6y agohere is your screenshot VS what I get when I visit the site: https://i.imgur.com/AHpKfUc.png https://i.imgur.com/AHpKfUc.png
- boogies 6y agoNot for me. Probably `prefers-color-scheme` CSS detecting your OS/browser settings ?
- 29athrowaway 6y ago> Arch Linux used to be an official app on the Windows Store some time ago, but the Arch community isn't onboard with the concept of WSL, or they aren't exactly comfortable with how easy WSL makes Linux installations for Windows users. Is Microsoft comfortable with Wine, Proton, VKD3D, DXVK? Do they support or contribute to those projects? Or even a better example, ReactOS. Should Microsoft support ReactOS?
- th0ma5 6y agoJust mentioning this for posterity. Some solutions I've had are: 1. Using Cygwin, Cygwin's X12 server and ssh X forwarding to run Linux apps on Windows that were actually running in VirtualBox. 2. Same thing with Cygwin X server but running everything in WSL1. 3. Trying to natively compile things for Cygwin. 4. Using Docker for Windows to run specific apps, although this is fairly similar to #1. 5. Straight Hyper V Debian... Networking was such a pain I went back to VirtualBox. I haven't messed with WSL2 yet but I imagine it'll be some cross of #1 and #2. Compiling stuff in Cygwin was a pain somewhat, still took hours to compile seemingly every dependency if the thing you wanted wasn't in the Cygwin package managers. The X server is rock solid though. The WSL1 sure is a neat idea but I can understand that being a dead end street so they hopped to virtualization. Another commenter mentioned ChromeOS and I really dig how they made that work. Even better than OSX. Recently I got a Pinebook Pro and running arch it seems I have to run a Debian container and forward X for so much stuff I'm thinking about just going to Debian straight away, but I may lose some support for some things I'm not sure. Edit: I forgot there is I think a closed source X server for Windows that is still free that supports some of OpenGL. I managed to get Kitty (terminal) running on that.
- munchbunny 6y agoWSL2 is basically the same as WSL1 for the comparison you're making, though the upcoming GUI stuff will mean that you don't have to fiddle with the X server, it'll "just work". The main difference I encounter between WSL1 and WSL2 is that accessing files across the OS divide happens through a networked filesystem instead of a natively shared filesystem, so it's not as seamless/performant, but the upside is much better filesystem performance when it's Linux doing Linux things. Which I'm happy about when it comes to containers. (I run both WSL1 and WSL2 on different computers.) Docker for Windows also now has WSL integration so that you can launch Linux containers directly into WSL. I don't think it's configured by default just because you have to choose to install WSL, but once you've flipped the requisite switches it's seamless.
- flukus 6y ago> The main difference I encounter between WSL1 and WSL2 is that accessing files across the OS divide happens through a networked filesystem instead of a natively shared filesystem This has been my biggest gripe with WSL and linux virtualization on windows. WSL1 wouldn't work with some weirdly mapped network drives we had and with WSL2 (and linux in general) I don't find the drivers (or samba or some other component) stable enough when you're doing large writes to NTFS drives, I've had the same issues with vmware too. This is one of the big reasons I'm still on cygwin, it's worked for years (maybe decades), it interoperates with windows better and all the little bugs have been worked out. Ultimately it's then GNU tools I'm after, the kernel isn't particularly interesting for my use cases.
- p1mrx 6y agoI tried WSL2 once, but IPv6 doesn't work. Guess I'll check back in a few years.
- anaganisk 6y agoAre we re-inventing, install linux GUI image oon hyper-V/any other VM. Wasnt wsl supposed to be a lightweight way of running cli tools? How is wsl2 any different from a regular vm when the image is fullblown.