5 ms·

Can you explain the significance of this correlation?

Lammy 6y ago
Have you ever seen people talk about how the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution outlaws slavery "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted", leading to the modern prison-industrial complex that overwhelmingly targets black Americans with arrests for petty crimes and traps them in The System? https://sites.lib.jmu.edu/civic/2020/09/17/slaves-of-the-state-13th-amendment-mass-incarceration-and-the-prison-industrial-complex/ https://sites.lib.jmu.edu/civic/2020/09/17/slaves-of-the-sta... The ECOA makes it illegal for lenders to discriminate for home mortgage loans, which would lead to reduced racial segregation (following the Fair Housing Act of 1968), reduced discrimination against unmarried/divorced women, and many other nice things. The exception is that discrimination is still totally legal if the person just can't afford the home. As Atari once told me, Do The Math: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OEHRENWBSHNO https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OEHRENWBSHNO Bonus points if we use the fear from the inevitable housing insecurity to make discriminated populations want to segregate themselves: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=gentrification&year_start=1950&year_end=2000&corpus=17&smoothing=2&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cgentrification%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=gentrification...
- marc__1 6y ago
  A book that goes deeper into this conversation is The Color of Money: Black Banks and the Racial Wealth Gap Well worth the read, the story had a lot of nuances https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34758210 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34758210
  - Lammy 6y ago
    Will check out; thanks!
  - mc32 6y ago
    That raises a question. How do other impoverished groups escape the poverty trap more quickly? Historically Chinese and other immigrants's needs were served by their own official and unofficial institutions. What can be done to keep dollars within a community to grow wealth within?
    - vkou 6y ago
      Not living in an environment where everything can be taken away from you through one bad interaction with say, a policeman helps. Having a stable family with positive role models, preferably one not torn apart by brushes with the justice system helps, too. These kinds of problems get inherited from generation to generation, even if (a damn big if) the current generation were not directly subjected to any of the original racist cases thereof.
      - mc32 6y ago
        Agree... I think unfortunately for multi-generational Americans there is a weird stigma when you come from certain backgrounds --some people escape them, but not most. Immigrants don't usually have this stigma and burden. They come for the opportunity which they believe comes with putting in hours or work and study. If you're second generation and greater, you assume many Americanisms like you're entitled to American things without the hard work. Immigrants are willing to sacrifice a generation so that the next might succeed. Quite a few of my HS cohort didn't have it in them to put in hard work. They wanted to hang out, play, skip school, go to the mall, smoke weed, get beer, etc. Kids of recent immigrants were not like that, by and large.
        reducesuffering 6y ago
        You hit a note with me about your American upbringing because I've had the same thoughts about mine but hadn't seen it hit it on the head like you have. American youth culture doesn't really value hard work and intellect. I know media like movies has a hand in this portrayal but I'm not sure it's really intentional like you allude to. I still wonder what it really is that some of us make it out into well paying careers while most of my HS cohort also mostly coasts on lackluster degrees and jobs. Race hasn't been any common thread in outcomes I've seen intra-high school, whereas the biggest differences seem to occur between high schools.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > The exception is that discrimination is still totally legal if the person just can't afford the home. It's also important to remember how this applies to school districts. If you exclude the poor from your neighborhood, you also exclude them from your school district. (This explains part of the otherwise unexpected opposition to school vouchers by college-educated affluent Democrats and the support for them by rural Republicans in bad school districts, when the vouchers would allow students to escape bad school districts.) > As Atari once told me, Do The Math: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OEHRENWBSHNO https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OEHRENWBSHNO Interestingly the steep curve on the graph is caused in large part by misguided policies claimed to increase home ownership (which is not really possible without increasing the housing supply). You can clearly see the "give mortgages to everybody regardless of whether they can afford it" policies leading up to the housing crisis, followed by the housing crisis, followed by more than a decade of near-zero interest rates inflating housing costs. It looks like we had completely reinflated the housing bubble by 2016 and have only gone up from there, so that's... not ideal. Though artificial housing scarcity is still a separate and real problem that compounds with this.
  - dillondoyle 6y ago
    What's super disgusting is charging mothers who can't afford to live in your district but still wanted to give their child the best education she could, so she used her dad's address... https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/434051-story-of-mother-sentenced-to-jail-for-enrolling-child-in https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/434051-sto... another example, not as 'clean', but they still charged enrolling her kid larceny... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanya_McDowell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanya_McDowell
  - JKCalhoun 6y ago
    > This explains part of the otherwise unexpected opposition to school vouchers by college-educated affluent Democrats and the support for them by rural Republicans in bad school districts, when the vouchers would allow students to escape bad school districts. I'm aware of wealthy families wanting the voucher to throw toward private schools (they were never going to send their kids to public schools regardless). Wealthy families are of both political leanings. Then there are the conservatives that dislike public schools because the teachers are in a union, or they believe teachers are liberals, or that they indoctrinate their kids into anit-Capitlist thinking, etc.... Really unfamiliar with the scenarios you paint. > You can clearly see the "give mortgages to everybody regardless of whether they can afford it" policies Or was it the de-leveraging of the banks, credit default swaps, derivatives and other shady practices by Wall Street?

Have you ever seen people talk about how the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution outlaws slavery "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted", leading to the modern prison-industrial complex that overwhelmingly targets black Americans with arrests for petty crimes and traps them in The System? https://sites.lib.jmu.edu/civic/2020/09/17/slaves-of-the-state-13th-amendment-mass-incarceration-and-the-prison-industrial-complex/ https://sites.lib.jmu.edu/civic/2020/09/17/slaves-of-the-sta... The ECOA makes it illegal for lenders to discriminate for home mortgage loans, which would lead to reduced racial segregation (following the Fair Housing Act of 1968), reduced discrimination against unmarried/divorced women, and many other nice things. The exception is that discrimination is still totally legal if the person just can't afford the home. As Atari once told me, Do The Math: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OEHRENWBSHNO https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OEHRENWBSHNO Bonus points if we use the fear from the inevitable housing insecurity to make discriminated populations want to segregate themselves: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=gentrification&year_start=1950&year_end=2000&corpus=17&smoothing=2&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cgentrification%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=gentrification...

marc__1 6y ago
A book that goes deeper into this conversation is The Color of Money: Black Banks and the Racial Wealth Gap Well worth the read, the story had a lot of nuances https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34758210 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34758210
- Lammy 6y ago
  Will check out; thanks!
- mc32 6y ago
  That raises a question. How do other impoverished groups escape the poverty trap more quickly? Historically Chinese and other immigrants's needs were served by their own official and unofficial institutions. What can be done to keep dollars within a community to grow wealth within?
  - vkou 6y ago
    Not living in an environment where everything can be taken away from you through one bad interaction with say, a policeman helps. Having a stable family with positive role models, preferably one not torn apart by brushes with the justice system helps, too. These kinds of problems get inherited from generation to generation, even if (a damn big if) the current generation were not directly subjected to any of the original racist cases thereof.
    - mc32 6y ago
      Agree... I think unfortunately for multi-generational Americans there is a weird stigma when you come from certain backgrounds --some people escape them, but not most. Immigrants don't usually have this stigma and burden. They come for the opportunity which they believe comes with putting in hours or work and study. If you're second generation and greater, you assume many Americanisms like you're entitled to American things without the hard work. Immigrants are willing to sacrifice a generation so that the next might succeed. Quite a few of my HS cohort didn't have it in them to put in hard work. They wanted to hang out, play, skip school, go to the mall, smoke weed, get beer, etc. Kids of recent immigrants were not like that, by and large.
      - reducesuffering 6y ago
        You hit a note with me about your American upbringing because I've had the same thoughts about mine but hadn't seen it hit it on the head like you have. American youth culture doesn't really value hard work and intellect. I know media like movies has a hand in this portrayal but I'm not sure it's really intentional like you allude to. I still wonder what it really is that some of us make it out into well paying careers while most of my HS cohort also mostly coasts on lackluster degrees and jobs. Race hasn't been any common thread in outcomes I've seen intra-high school, whereas the biggest differences seem to occur between high schools.
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> The exception is that discrimination is still totally legal if the person just can't afford the home. It's also important to remember how this applies to school districts. If you exclude the poor from your neighborhood, you also exclude them from your school district. (This explains part of the otherwise unexpected opposition to school vouchers by college-educated affluent Democrats and the support for them by rural Republicans in bad school districts, when the vouchers would allow students to escape bad school districts.) > As Atari once told me, Do The Math: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OEHRENWBSHNO https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OEHRENWBSHNO Interestingly the steep curve on the graph is caused in large part by misguided policies claimed to increase home ownership (which is not really possible without increasing the housing supply). You can clearly see the "give mortgages to everybody regardless of whether they can afford it" policies leading up to the housing crisis, followed by the housing crisis, followed by more than a decade of near-zero interest rates inflating housing costs. It looks like we had completely reinflated the housing bubble by 2016 and have only gone up from there, so that's... not ideal. Though artificial housing scarcity is still a separate and real problem that compounds with this.
- dillondoyle 6y ago
  What's super disgusting is charging mothers who can't afford to live in your district but still wanted to give their child the best education she could, so she used her dad's address... https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/434051-story-of-mother-sentenced-to-jail-for-enrolling-child-in https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/434051-sto... another example, not as 'clean', but they still charged enrolling her kid larceny... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanya_McDowell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanya_McDowell
- JKCalhoun 6y ago
  > This explains part of the otherwise unexpected opposition to school vouchers by college-educated affluent Democrats and the support for them by rural Republicans in bad school districts, when the vouchers would allow students to escape bad school districts. I'm aware of wealthy families wanting the voucher to throw toward private schools (they were never going to send their kids to public schools regardless). Wealthy families are of both political leanings. Then there are the conservatives that dislike public schools because the teachers are in a union, or they believe teachers are liberals, or that they indoctrinate their kids into anit-Capitlist thinking, etc.... Really unfamiliar with the scenarios you paint. > You can clearly see the "give mortgages to everybody regardless of whether they can afford it" policies Or was it the de-leveraging of the banks, credit default swaps, derivatives and other shady practices by Wall Street?