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MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Action Certification

204 points by ek750 6y ago

batterylow 6y ago
It's the worst typing experience I've had to date https://datacrayon.com/posts/tools/misc/macbook-butterfly-keyboard-problems/ https://datacrayon.com/posts/tools/misc/macbook-butterfly-ke...
- rbanffy 6y ago
  I actually like the very tactile nature. I think it's a shame to have to return to the previous model, where key travel is longer, but the tactility is meh.
  - post_break 6y ago
    Like it or not I just wanted to buy a Mac that didn’t have a ticking time bomb of a repair. Thank god the M1 macs don’t have the keyboard. It’s the reason I haven’t bought a new Mac since 2013.
    - rbanffy 6y ago
      I completely understand that. Still, it's a shame not even the mechanical design wizards at Apple couldn't make it reliable. I have a couple scissor keyboards (the pre-magic ones) and, alternating between the laptop and the desktop one just makes it clear how much the butterfly feels better.
      - headmelted 6y ago
        Im pretty sure they did make it reliable, but the ship had sailed by then. I haven’t heard of any trouble with the fourth gen (the last one before moving back to scissor-switches) at all. It’s really unfortunate - a lot of people really liked the butterfly keyboard - but the reliability issues in earlier versions combined with the criticisms on key travel meant those voices just didn’t win out.
  - birdyrooster 6y ago
    I agree, I don't like key travel. I guess I am in the minority of people, because my RSI symptoms are actually lessened by lowering my key travel and trigger force. How I differ though is that I really would prefer a more quiet key than the Butterfly style. It's hard to type quietly on the toilet or in a meeting.
    - gen220 6y ago
      Just trying to help, since I’ve been there! Your RSI symptoms might be correlated with but not caused by key travel / force. I’ve found that the dominant cause of RSI is wrist pose (position + orientation), which is mostly influenced by keyboard height (relative to your body), and also to a lesser extent by key pose. Using a split, rising-away keyboard at a position where elbows are bent 90ish degrees and the wrists are in a neutral position is a game-changer. Lower key travel/trigger times change the orientation of your wrists, but not the position. So it might make things better, but no laptop keyboard will provide the optimal typing environment.
      - brigandish 6y ago
        Is there a picture showing this? (or these) I find it hard to be sure I'm visualising what you're describing.
        gen220 6y ago
        I think this article [1] does a pretty good job. (#1 result when I Google for “optimal typing posture”). Only thing I’d disagree with is I prefer to have my horizontally aligned with the midpoint of my monitor, to ease pressure on the neck. Another thing it mentions but doesn’t visualize is the effect of having a split keyboard. Without the split, your shoulders are in a strained position while typing. You can practice this with a “ghost” keyboard and paying attention to your shoulder muscles, it makes a big difference! [1]: http://ergonomictrends.com/proper-ergonomic-typing-posture-at-computer/ http://ergonomictrends.com/proper-ergonomic-typing-posture-a...
      - birdyrooster 6y ago
  - pivo 6y ago
    I have a 2019 model with the fixed (hopefully) version of the keyboard that added the debris-protecting membrane. It hasn't failed me yet, knock wood. I really love how fast I can type on it and how light the keypresses need be. I'm less accurate but my increased typing speed more than makes up for the the slight loss in accuracy. Some of my colleagues complain of muscle pain from the short key travel on these models. From sitting next to them in pre-Covid days I can only imagine that's due to how hard they used to pound their poor keyboards. I dreaded moving to the chiclet keyboards and then I dreaded moving to the butterfly, but at least for me they both turned out to be pleasantly surprising upgrades.
- QuercusMax 6y ago
  I now have RSI after using my 2018 macbook pro. I remember after those came out, everybody's typing was way louder and distracting in meetings - that can't be healthy for your joints. It feels like typing on a block of wood.
- mark_story 6y ago
  100% agree. The butterfly switch MBP I have is by far the worst keyboard I have ever used. After a few hours of typing on that keyboard my fingers are sore from instant bottom out into what feels like a sheet of metal.
- Eric_WVGG 6y ago
  I'm one of the rare weirdos who really likes the feel of the butterfly keyboard. I love the snappy, tappy reaction. The new "magic" keyboards feel mushy in comparison. BUT… my 2016 MBP is on its third keyboard, and seems ready for a fourth. AND… for four years I've been wondering if my typing has been getting progressively worse worse; a couple weeks ago I picked up an M1 Air as a kind of stopgap while waiting for the M1 16". LO AND BEHOLD: my typing accuracy got better overnight. That fraction of a millimeter between the keys makes a huge difference. I love the butterfly keyboard. It was a disaster. RIP.
  - aranchelk 6y ago
    Another weirdo here I guess. I love the stability and the positive clickiness. I'm pretty picky with my keyboards otherwise preferring tactile mechanical switches. Surprised not see more love for butterflies here. I haven't had those reliability issues, but 90% of the time work with an external keyboard and I clean my equipment more often than most.
    - curryst 6y ago
      I didn't get enough tactile feedback while touch typing. It felt hard to tell whether the "click" feeling I got was from the key clicking or just from my finger hitting the key and bouncing off. Fwiw, I don't like any of the key systems that have a force threshold they just give up after. I had a Razer gaming keyboard that I didn't like for the same reason. It had good travel, but the keys don't move until you hit a certain force and then they totally cave and there's no resistance. They're also not really designed for typing though.
  - TheRealSteel 6y ago
    I'm on your side. I love the low travel and the clickiness. I don't like how easily it breaks, and I don't like the Touch Bar, but I actually really like typing on the butterfly keyboard itself (I'm typing this on one), I find I'm very fast and accurate and it feels quick and clean.
  - Qub3d 6y ago
    FWIW, I went from a 2014 Macbook Pro to a 2019 16 inch model (first one that went back to the "magic" keyboard) and I find the keys noticeably more snappy; I suppose my old rubber domes may have worn out, but the travel is definitely less, and its sharper.
luxuryballs 6y ago
Sweet so maybe I’ll be able to get a big enough payout to afford an entire can of duster.
- teruakohatu 6y ago
  If the payout is an Apple Store voucher you can better hope they start stocking canned air.
drivebycomment 6y ago
I'm not sure I fully understand the rationale behind this lawsuit. I hated butterfly keyboard the moment I tried it, which is why I stopped upgrading/buying MacBook Pro entirely. People who bought had all the chances to try and decide not to buy, or to even return after trying. They stuck to it. What's the ground for the class action ? Did Apple make any misleading presentation ? Otherwise, this feels like suing simply because you don't like the product (when they had all the chances to not buy or return).
- detaro 6y ago
  The article states the answers to your questions.
  - drivebycomment 6y ago
    I hate butterfly keyboard and I think it's one of the worst mistakes Apple ever made, but I'm afraid I didn't find anything in the article that mentions what "consumer protection law" that Apple violated. As far as I know, Apple followed through with their warranty. There's no safety issues with keyboard failures. Where/when does the company's liability end with their product ?
    - kemayo 6y ago
      You have to follow the link title "filed in 2018" to get the full description of the lawsuit. It says: > Apple is accused of, among other things, violating California's Unfair Competition Law and Consumer Legal Remedies Act, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, the Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act, and breach of express warranty. I certainly don't know enough about the law to comment on whether they're actually in violation of anything there. But as a complete layperson the argument "Apple knowingly sold keyboards that broke unreasonably quickly, and took a weirdly long time to change that" is persuasive under some vague sense that products should be suitable for reasonable use.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
_ph_ 6y ago
Keyboards shouldn't fail as often as the butterfly keyboards did (and the fact that the most commonly used letters tended to fail first points rather to a wear issue than just breadcrumbs), but most of all, it shouldn't take more than $100 to exchange a failed keyboard. But with the "repair" costs charged for the laptops, they become a write-off basically as soon as they fail out of warranty.
- samatman 6y ago
  Apple extended no-questions-asked replacement for butterfly keyboards for something like four years after sale. Don't recall if they refunded replacements before they put that policy in place though. Mostly mentioning this in case someone is sitting on an out-of-warranty MacBook with a failed keyboard. My left command key quitting on one of those MBPs brought me right up to the edge of bailing on the whole ecosystem; switching back to scissors for the 16" MBP kept me in the garden, for now.
  - alex504 6y ago
    4 years seems like a bit of an insult in this scenario. These laptops are very expensive bought new and this is a defect; you would think they would repair them for life or at least as long as the life of the laptop. I've been using the same MBR laptop since 2013 for personal use and haven't found any reason to switch. I would be pretty mad if I owned one of these and had to get it fixed, or wanted to resell it and had a lower resell value because of the keyboard. It also feels worse because they continued manufacturing them for years after they knew there was a problem. 4 years smells similar to the planned obsolescence scandal in iPhones, as it implies that the lifetime of one of these is 4 years which is just not the case in my experience. They are hoping people will say "my laptop needs a new battery and a new keyboard, might as well drop another 2 grand for a new one" instead of keeping their perfectly good laptop.
    - samatman 6y ago
      The most plausible theory for why they stuck with the butterfly board that long, is that Jony Ive didn't leave the company until 2019. Word is, it was his baby, and he was convinced that if they just kept tweaking it, they would get it right eventually. The keyboard I'm typing on feels identical to every other MacBook keyboard I've owned, going back to the titanium PowerBook G4. I expect it will prove comparably durable: never had a key skip or double-press on any of them, and I go hard on my equipment. I actually liked the crispness of the butterfly keys, but absolute reliability is a hard requirement and they just weren't.
wintermutestwin 6y ago
So what does this class action mean in real terms? I have an impacted MacBook and it will run out of the repair date in a few months. Is that going to get extended? If not, am I going to get the massive loss in resale? I am assuming it means the lawyers will make bank and I'll get a check for a hundred or so.
- dylan604 6y ago
  Has any class action member ever received a check more than a couple of dollars if not less? The lawyers are the only ones that ever get money.
cletus 6y ago
I actually blame Johnny Ive for this clusterf*ck. Ive famously pursued a crusade for thinness. It's said that design is the art of compromise. Well, Ive took a no compromises approach to thinness and it showed. Look no further than the 12" Macbook. One port (also needed for power), lower power CPU and (I believe?) the start of the dreaded butterfly keyboard. IIRC the butterfly keyboard's raison d'etre was to shave half a millimeter off the thickness of a Macbook. That's... it. Oh and that same crusade is probably a big part of why we lost the MagSafe adapter. Compare the 12" Macbook to the (2010 and onwards) Macbook Air. A good compromise of thinness, power, ports and price point. For years, many (including myself) just wanted an upgrade to the Macbook Air with a retina display (and more modern ports). But we didn't, we got the "no compromises" Macbook instead.. until that was (thankfully) killed and the macbook Air came back. And sure Ive designed the 2008 Macbook Air and he deserves credit for his design but... he clearly went off the deep end at some point after that. The M1 Air even got rid of the stupid touch bar (thank God).
- SilverRed 6y ago
  I recently had the choice between a macbook pro and a dell xps. Saw the dell xps had HDMI, USB-C _and_ USB-A and was sold. Its nice to be able to bring my laptop in to a meeting room and just be able to plug in the hdmi cable without needing an adapter. Its also really nice to be able to use all my usb c accessories but without having to go usb C only. And its not noticeably thicker than the macbook either. I can understand the pursuit of thinness or at least weight reduction in mobile devices. If the iPad was any heavier, you wouldn't be able to use it while standing. But on a laptop there is a lot more room for weight and thickness. As log as its comfortable to carry, that's good enough.
  - Goosee 6y ago
    I use to have the same thought process as you: instantly sold on devices with native hdmi, usb a & usb c. By that metric xps beats macbook. Recently I tried to convert to a windows laptop from my 16 inch mbp. Upon switching I was constantly annoyed by the fan noise & using my pinkie to press the 'control' key opposed to macbook thumb on 'command' key. The point is, I realized native port selection was not a metric to consider when purchasing a laptop. I am fine bringing an adapter to the meeting room. I guess it comes down to what you value. I am just trying to play 'devil's advocate' with my anecdotal experience compared to your experience.
baby 6y ago
Both my work macbook pro and my personal macbook air have keyboard issues. My personal skips or double hits the letter “e”, which has been a nightmare because I’ve been writing a book the whole time. My work laptop is worse, the command key doesn’t work most of the time. Sometimes I try to copy something, I’ll hit command-c and instead it’ll overwrite my selection with “c”. So I try to undo and hit command-z, so it’ll write “cz”, I hit a number of time which gets me “czzzzzz” (which is funny if I’m on VC and sharing my screen). Then the undo works, I try to copy again, and I hit the same issue again. Im convinced that my mental health has taken a toll in parts due to this. I’m also convinced I have many typos in my book because of this as well.
- wilkystyle 6y ago
  I'm in the same boat. Initially, I was skeptical of all the reports about how frequently the issue was happening, and I was starting to believe that it was just hysterics by the anti-Apple crowd. But it was eventually just a matter of time. First my personal laptop had issues, and I was thankfully able to take advantage of the free keyboard replacement. Then my work laptop began experiencing the same issue, and it's gotten so bad that I had to connect an external keyboard in order to be able to login because I have no way to see which characters are getting screwed up as I type my password. I keep meaning to take it to the Apple store, but the latest estimates are 5 to 7 days to replace the keyboard and I haven't yet had the opportunity to be without my work machine for that long.
  - dmux 6y ago
    Before I brought my Macbook Air in for repairs, I did have some success with the Unshakey application [1]. Sadly, about 8 months after getting that fixed my entire display went due to the supposed "Flexgate" issue. [1] https://unshaky.nestederror.com/ https://unshaky.nestederror.com/
  - gorbypark 6y ago
    I just did an online chat with Apple to get my keyboard replaced due to similar issues. It’s out of warranty but they said they’ll do it for free for up to four years after the date of retail sale...I happened to be exactly, to the day, four years from when I bought it! Make sure you get it done before then!
ornxka 6y ago
Am I the only one who thinks that no travel + tactile feedback actually sound like two highly desirable properties for a keyboard? Whenever I use someone else's butterfly keyboard I'm impressed and a bit jealous, but as I've never used one for long, I can't say whether it's really an improvement.
- wildrhythms 6y ago
  I'm favorable to keyboards with minimal key travel, and the MBP with its butterfly keys- initially- was amazing. The problem is that after just a few months of regular use some keys started double-activating, or some keys require extra force to activate. And due to the nature of the keys, they were difficult to clean free of regular dust/grime.
- dkjaudyeqooe 6y ago
  I think if it had a really crisp click and actually worked people would like it. I certainly would. The amount of travel is pretty irrelevant if you get solid feedback.
  - hombre_fatal 6y ago
    Yeah, the ultra-thin keyboard would have been fine for me if it stayed crisp and clicky for the lifespan of the laptop. It could just barely deliver a small fraction of that. The butterfly keyboard implementation was just too fragile, for one. Keyboards need to be able to take a beating.
- protomyth 6y ago
  No travel gets you the Atari 400 keyboard and that just hurts your hands.
- FPGAhacker 6y ago
  I actually like the feel, and later versions didn't sound like a thundering herd. But it was just so unreliable that it was completely not worth it.
- dylan604 6y ago
unfocused 6y ago
Super anecdotal comment here, but my down arrow key on my Macbook Air M1 2020 was recently sticking. No spills. Removed it, found nothing, and tried to put it back, but now I've cracked the key. Off to the Apple Genius bar I go. I've had it for nearly 4 months now. Hopefully this is just a one off.
- dsego 6y ago
  Not sure about the new ones, but the old butterfly key caps were really thin and brittle plastic. And unlike other laptops they were attached with hooks and clips, which makes it hard to remove the cap without snapping the flimsy hook. It's just cheaply made. Compared to something like my t480s, I've been pounding on it for a few years now and no issues whatsoever, I can spill a drink, it's full of crumbs and dust, but still going. I even dropped it, replaced the lcd in a local shop. Screw apple, I'm not going back, even the m1 is not tempting me. I love the ports, repairability and ruggedness too much to give it up.
  - unfocused 6y ago
    I agree with you. I took it out carefully, and noted the pins, but it cracked from the edge in when I tried to put it back! I still have so many old keyboards, and a Lenovo laptop and a 2013 Macbook Pro. None of them have ever had a "sticky" key or cracked. 4 months in is too quick to have keyboard problems.
shepardrtc 6y ago
If anyone is having issues with a butterfly keyboard, please try this: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662 It fixed many keys for me after I had just about given up.
- dsego 6y ago
  That's nice, but in my case on the 2016 model the key caps would literally lift off and stick to my fingers. I suspect the heat would weaken the keys, technology nowadays must be designed by people living in colder climates. The screen is now also showing a black area at the bottom and then it comes back on after a few minutes. Total lemon, I swore not to buy an apple laptop again.
turtlebits 6y ago
Not sure if just me, but the Butterfly keyboard is the best keyboard I've ever used on a notebook. The thinness didn't matter to me, typing feel felt so much more stable and solid. I don't believe it was created due to a pursuit of thinness. That said, I didn't have failures other than a couple of minor occurrences, twice I had to clean out my 2016 (with blown air), and never had any issues on my 2018.
- Mayzie 6y ago
  Same here! I’m on a 2019 MBP, and absolutely _love_ the butterfly keyboard. I have also had no issues with it. Then again, I find those that do love smashing their fingers down on the keys whereas I lightly tap which I really really like. I am really not looking forward to using a non-butterfly keyboard when I eventually have to upgrade :(
- skocznymroczny 6y ago
  Me too. I love butterfly keyboard. I like how crunchy it feels like typing. I wish they made external keyboards with butterfly mechanism because I'd love to have one for my PC.
- wodenokoto 6y ago
  I’m torn. I think it’s a great typing experience but they do break too easily.
- dsego 6y ago
  Do you touch type?
baby 6y ago
Anyone knows what happen if I bring my defective laptop back? Macbook air 2019. Can I return it or will they just fix the keyboard.
high_derivative 6y ago
I will never forget getting my Butterfly MBP repaired (within the warranty), and the Apple employee telling me it would have been $600 but they were generously doing this for free, this time.
erlich 6y ago
This is one of the few times someone has lied directly to my face, and I will always remember it. The issue was plastered all over the internet with people even writing apps to solve the issue by disabling key-repeat etc. I go into the store and say "my MacBook is doing the double key press thing, same issue everyone's talking about online", and the guy says to me "oh we are not aware of this". I should have done a Google search to show him all the posts in retrospect. It was such blatant bullshit. They repaired my MacBook under warranty, but just useless lying to customers.

204 points by ek750 6y ago

It's the worst typing experience I've had to date https://datacrayon.com/posts/tools/misc/macbook-butterfly-keyboard-problems/ https://datacrayon.com/posts/tools/misc/macbook-butterfly-ke...

rbanffy 6y ago
I actually like the very tactile nature. I think it's a shame to have to return to the previous model, where key travel is longer, but the tactility is meh.
- post_break 6y ago
  Like it or not I just wanted to buy a Mac that didn’t have a ticking time bomb of a repair. Thank god the M1 macs don’t have the keyboard. It’s the reason I haven’t bought a new Mac since 2013.
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    I completely understand that. Still, it's a shame not even the mechanical design wizards at Apple couldn't make it reliable. I have a couple scissor keyboards (the pre-magic ones) and, alternating between the laptop and the desktop one just makes it clear how much the butterfly feels better.
    - headmelted 6y ago
      Im pretty sure they did make it reliable, but the ship had sailed by then. I haven’t heard of any trouble with the fourth gen (the last one before moving back to scissor-switches) at all. It’s really unfortunate - a lot of people really liked the butterfly keyboard - but the reliability issues in earlier versions combined with the criticisms on key travel meant those voices just didn’t win out.
- birdyrooster 6y ago
  I agree, I don't like key travel. I guess I am in the minority of people, because my RSI symptoms are actually lessened by lowering my key travel and trigger force. How I differ though is that I really would prefer a more quiet key than the Butterfly style. It's hard to type quietly on the toilet or in a meeting.
  - gen220 6y ago
    Just trying to help, since I’ve been there! Your RSI symptoms might be correlated with but not caused by key travel / force. I’ve found that the dominant cause of RSI is wrist pose (position + orientation), which is mostly influenced by keyboard height (relative to your body), and also to a lesser extent by key pose. Using a split, rising-away keyboard at a position where elbows are bent 90ish degrees and the wrists are in a neutral position is a game-changer. Lower key travel/trigger times change the orientation of your wrists, but not the position. So it might make things better, but no laptop keyboard will provide the optimal typing environment.
    - brigandish 6y ago
      Is there a picture showing this? (or these) I find it hard to be sure I'm visualising what you're describing.
      - gen220 6y ago
        I think this article [1] does a pretty good job. (#1 result when I Google for “optimal typing posture”). Only thing I’d disagree with is I prefer to have my horizontally aligned with the midpoint of my monitor, to ease pressure on the neck. Another thing it mentions but doesn’t visualize is the effect of having a split keyboard. Without the split, your shoulders are in a strained position while typing. You can practice this with a “ghost” keyboard and paying attention to your shoulder muscles, it makes a big difference! [1]: http://ergonomictrends.com/proper-ergonomic-typing-posture-at-computer/ http://ergonomictrends.com/proper-ergonomic-typing-posture-a...
    - birdyrooster 6y ago
- pivo 6y ago
  I have a 2019 model with the fixed (hopefully) version of the keyboard that added the debris-protecting membrane. It hasn't failed me yet, knock wood. I really love how fast I can type on it and how light the keypresses need be. I'm less accurate but my increased typing speed more than makes up for the the slight loss in accuracy. Some of my colleagues complain of muscle pain from the short key travel on these models. From sitting next to them in pre-Covid days I can only imagine that's due to how hard they used to pound their poor keyboards. I dreaded moving to the chiclet keyboards and then I dreaded moving to the butterfly, but at least for me they both turned out to be pleasantly surprising upgrades.
QuercusMax 6y ago
I now have RSI after using my 2018 macbook pro. I remember after those came out, everybody's typing was way louder and distracting in meetings - that can't be healthy for your joints. It feels like typing on a block of wood.
mark_story 6y ago
100% agree. The butterfly switch MBP I have is by far the worst keyboard I have ever used. After a few hours of typing on that keyboard my fingers are sore from instant bottom out into what feels like a sheet of metal.
Eric_WVGG 6y ago
I'm one of the rare weirdos who really likes the feel of the butterfly keyboard. I love the snappy, tappy reaction. The new "magic" keyboards feel mushy in comparison. BUT… my 2016 MBP is on its third keyboard, and seems ready for a fourth. AND… for four years I've been wondering if my typing has been getting progressively worse worse; a couple weeks ago I picked up an M1 Air as a kind of stopgap while waiting for the M1 16". LO AND BEHOLD: my typing accuracy got better overnight. That fraction of a millimeter between the keys makes a huge difference. I love the butterfly keyboard. It was a disaster. RIP.
- aranchelk 6y ago
  Another weirdo here I guess. I love the stability and the positive clickiness. I'm pretty picky with my keyboards otherwise preferring tactile mechanical switches. Surprised not see more love for butterflies here. I haven't had those reliability issues, but 90% of the time work with an external keyboard and I clean my equipment more often than most.
  - curryst 6y ago
    I didn't get enough tactile feedback while touch typing. It felt hard to tell whether the "click" feeling I got was from the key clicking or just from my finger hitting the key and bouncing off. Fwiw, I don't like any of the key systems that have a force threshold they just give up after. I had a Razer gaming keyboard that I didn't like for the same reason. It had good travel, but the keys don't move until you hit a certain force and then they totally cave and there's no resistance. They're also not really designed for typing though.
- TheRealSteel 6y ago
  I'm on your side. I love the low travel and the clickiness. I don't like how easily it breaks, and I don't like the Touch Bar, but I actually really like typing on the butterfly keyboard itself (I'm typing this on one), I find I'm very fast and accurate and it feels quick and clean.
- Qub3d 6y ago
  FWIW, I went from a 2014 Macbook Pro to a 2019 16 inch model (first one that went back to the "magic" keyboard) and I find the keys noticeably more snappy; I suppose my old rubber domes may have worn out, but the travel is definitely less, and its sharper.

luxuryballs 6y ago

Sweet so maybe I’ll be able to get a big enough payout to afford an entire can of duster.

teruakohatu 6y ago
If the payout is an Apple Store voucher you can better hope they start stocking canned air.

drivebycomment 6y ago

I'm not sure I fully understand the rationale behind this lawsuit. I hated butterfly keyboard the moment I tried it, which is why I stopped upgrading/buying MacBook Pro entirely. People who bought had all the chances to try and decide not to buy, or to even return after trying. They stuck to it. What's the ground for the class action ? Did Apple make any misleading presentation ? Otherwise, this feels like suing simply because you don't like the product (when they had all the chances to not buy or return).

detaro 6y ago
The article states the answers to your questions.
- drivebycomment 6y ago
  I hate butterfly keyboard and I think it's one of the worst mistakes Apple ever made, but I'm afraid I didn't find anything in the article that mentions what "consumer protection law" that Apple violated. As far as I know, Apple followed through with their warranty. There's no safety issues with keyboard failures. Where/when does the company's liability end with their product ?
  - kemayo 6y ago
    You have to follow the link title "filed in 2018" to get the full description of the lawsuit. It says: > Apple is accused of, among other things, violating California's Unfair Competition Law and Consumer Legal Remedies Act, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, the Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act, and breach of express warranty. I certainly don't know enough about the law to comment on whether they're actually in violation of anything there. But as a complete layperson the argument "Apple knowingly sold keyboards that broke unreasonably quickly, and took a weirdly long time to change that" is persuasive under some vague sense that products should be suitable for reasonable use.
    - arcticbull 6y ago

_ph_ 6y ago

Keyboards shouldn't fail as often as the butterfly keyboards did (and the fact that the most commonly used letters tended to fail first points rather to a wear issue than just breadcrumbs), but most of all, it shouldn't take more than $100 to exchange a failed keyboard. But with the "repair" costs charged for the laptops, they become a write-off basically as soon as they fail out of warranty.

samatman 6y ago
Apple extended no-questions-asked replacement for butterfly keyboards for something like four years after sale. Don't recall if they refunded replacements before they put that policy in place though. Mostly mentioning this in case someone is sitting on an out-of-warranty MacBook with a failed keyboard. My left command key quitting on one of those MBPs brought me right up to the edge of bailing on the whole ecosystem; switching back to scissors for the 16" MBP kept me in the garden, for now.
- alex504 6y ago
  4 years seems like a bit of an insult in this scenario. These laptops are very expensive bought new and this is a defect; you would think they would repair them for life or at least as long as the life of the laptop. I've been using the same MBR laptop since 2013 for personal use and haven't found any reason to switch. I would be pretty mad if I owned one of these and had to get it fixed, or wanted to resell it and had a lower resell value because of the keyboard. It also feels worse because they continued manufacturing them for years after they knew there was a problem. 4 years smells similar to the planned obsolescence scandal in iPhones, as it implies that the lifetime of one of these is 4 years which is just not the case in my experience. They are hoping people will say "my laptop needs a new battery and a new keyboard, might as well drop another 2 grand for a new one" instead of keeping their perfectly good laptop.
  - samatman 6y ago
    The most plausible theory for why they stuck with the butterfly board that long, is that Jony Ive didn't leave the company until 2019. Word is, it was his baby, and he was convinced that if they just kept tweaking it, they would get it right eventually. The keyboard I'm typing on feels identical to every other MacBook keyboard I've owned, going back to the titanium PowerBook G4. I expect it will prove comparably durable: never had a key skip or double-press on any of them, and I go hard on my equipment. I actually liked the crispness of the butterfly keys, but absolute reliability is a hard requirement and they just weren't.

wintermutestwin 6y ago

So what does this class action mean in real terms? I have an impacted MacBook and it will run out of the repair date in a few months. Is that going to get extended? If not, am I going to get the massive loss in resale? I am assuming it means the lawyers will make bank and I'll get a check for a hundred or so.

dylan604 6y ago
Has any class action member ever received a check more than a couple of dollars if not less? The lawyers are the only ones that ever get money.

cletus 6y ago

I actually blame Johnny Ive for this clusterf*ck. Ive famously pursued a crusade for thinness. It's said that design is the art of compromise. Well, Ive took a no compromises approach to thinness and it showed. Look no further than the 12" Macbook. One port (also needed for power), lower power CPU and (I believe?) the start of the dreaded butterfly keyboard. IIRC the butterfly keyboard's raison d'etre was to shave half a millimeter off the thickness of a Macbook. That's... it. Oh and that same crusade is probably a big part of why we lost the MagSafe adapter. Compare the 12" Macbook to the (2010 and onwards) Macbook Air. A good compromise of thinness, power, ports and price point. For years, many (including myself) just wanted an upgrade to the Macbook Air with a retina display (and more modern ports). But we didn't, we got the "no compromises" Macbook instead.. until that was (thankfully) killed and the macbook Air came back. And sure Ive designed the 2008 Macbook Air and he deserves credit for his design but... he clearly went off the deep end at some point after that. The M1 Air even got rid of the stupid touch bar (thank God).

SilverRed 6y ago
I recently had the choice between a macbook pro and a dell xps. Saw the dell xps had HDMI, USB-C _and_ USB-A and was sold. Its nice to be able to bring my laptop in to a meeting room and just be able to plug in the hdmi cable without needing an adapter. Its also really nice to be able to use all my usb c accessories but without having to go usb C only. And its not noticeably thicker than the macbook either. I can understand the pursuit of thinness or at least weight reduction in mobile devices. If the iPad was any heavier, you wouldn't be able to use it while standing. But on a laptop there is a lot more room for weight and thickness. As log as its comfortable to carry, that's good enough.
- Goosee 6y ago
  I use to have the same thought process as you: instantly sold on devices with native hdmi, usb a & usb c. By that metric xps beats macbook. Recently I tried to convert to a windows laptop from my 16 inch mbp. Upon switching I was constantly annoyed by the fan noise & using my pinkie to press the 'control' key opposed to macbook thumb on 'command' key. The point is, I realized native port selection was not a metric to consider when purchasing a laptop. I am fine bringing an adapter to the meeting room. I guess it comes down to what you value. I am just trying to play 'devil's advocate' with my anecdotal experience compared to your experience.

baby 6y ago

Both my work macbook pro and my personal macbook air have keyboard issues. My personal skips or double hits the letter “e”, which has been a nightmare because I’ve been writing a book the whole time. My work laptop is worse, the command key doesn’t work most of the time. Sometimes I try to copy something, I’ll hit command-c and instead it’ll overwrite my selection with “c”. So I try to undo and hit command-z, so it’ll write “cz”, I hit a number of time which gets me “czzzzzz” (which is funny if I’m on VC and sharing my screen). Then the undo works, I try to copy again, and I hit the same issue again. Im convinced that my mental health has taken a toll in parts due to this. I’m also convinced I have many typos in my book because of this as well.

wilkystyle 6y ago
I'm in the same boat. Initially, I was skeptical of all the reports about how frequently the issue was happening, and I was starting to believe that it was just hysterics by the anti-Apple crowd. But it was eventually just a matter of time. First my personal laptop had issues, and I was thankfully able to take advantage of the free keyboard replacement. Then my work laptop began experiencing the same issue, and it's gotten so bad that I had to connect an external keyboard in order to be able to login because I have no way to see which characters are getting screwed up as I type my password. I keep meaning to take it to the Apple store, but the latest estimates are 5 to 7 days to replace the keyboard and I haven't yet had the opportunity to be without my work machine for that long.
- dmux 6y ago
  Before I brought my Macbook Air in for repairs, I did have some success with the Unshakey application [1]. Sadly, about 8 months after getting that fixed my entire display went due to the supposed "Flexgate" issue. [1] https://unshaky.nestederror.com/ https://unshaky.nestederror.com/
- gorbypark 6y ago
  I just did an online chat with Apple to get my keyboard replaced due to similar issues. It’s out of warranty but they said they’ll do it for free for up to four years after the date of retail sale...I happened to be exactly, to the day, four years from when I bought it! Make sure you get it done before then!

ornxka 6y ago

Am I the only one who thinks that no travel + tactile feedback actually sound like two highly desirable properties for a keyboard? Whenever I use someone else's butterfly keyboard I'm impressed and a bit jealous, but as I've never used one for long, I can't say whether it's really an improvement.

wildrhythms 6y ago
I'm favorable to keyboards with minimal key travel, and the MBP with its butterfly keys- initially- was amazing. The problem is that after just a few months of regular use some keys started double-activating, or some keys require extra force to activate. And due to the nature of the keys, they were difficult to clean free of regular dust/grime.
dkjaudyeqooe 6y ago
I think if it had a really crisp click and actually worked people would like it. I certainly would. The amount of travel is pretty irrelevant if you get solid feedback.
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  Yeah, the ultra-thin keyboard would have been fine for me if it stayed crisp and clicky for the lifespan of the laptop. It could just barely deliver a small fraction of that. The butterfly keyboard implementation was just too fragile, for one. Keyboards need to be able to take a beating.
protomyth 6y ago
No travel gets you the Atari 400 keyboard and that just hurts your hands.
FPGAhacker 6y ago
I actually like the feel, and later versions didn't sound like a thundering herd. But it was just so unreliable that it was completely not worth it.
dylan604 6y ago

unfocused 6y ago

Super anecdotal comment here, but my down arrow key on my Macbook Air M1 2020 was recently sticking. No spills. Removed it, found nothing, and tried to put it back, but now I've cracked the key. Off to the Apple Genius bar I go. I've had it for nearly 4 months now. Hopefully this is just a one off.

dsego 6y ago
Not sure about the new ones, but the old butterfly key caps were really thin and brittle plastic. And unlike other laptops they were attached with hooks and clips, which makes it hard to remove the cap without snapping the flimsy hook. It's just cheaply made. Compared to something like my t480s, I've been pounding on it for a few years now and no issues whatsoever, I can spill a drink, it's full of crumbs and dust, but still going. I even dropped it, replaced the lcd in a local shop. Screw apple, I'm not going back, even the m1 is not tempting me. I love the ports, repairability and ruggedness too much to give it up.
- unfocused 6y ago
  I agree with you. I took it out carefully, and noted the pins, but it cracked from the edge in when I tried to put it back! I still have so many old keyboards, and a Lenovo laptop and a 2013 Macbook Pro. None of them have ever had a "sticky" key or cracked. 4 months in is too quick to have keyboard problems.

shepardrtc 6y ago

If anyone is having issues with a butterfly keyboard, please try this: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662 It fixed many keys for me after I had just about given up.

dsego 6y ago
That's nice, but in my case on the 2016 model the key caps would literally lift off and stick to my fingers. I suspect the heat would weaken the keys, technology nowadays must be designed by people living in colder climates. The screen is now also showing a black area at the bottom and then it comes back on after a few minutes. Total lemon, I swore not to buy an apple laptop again.

turtlebits 6y ago

Not sure if just me, but the Butterfly keyboard is the best keyboard I've ever used on a notebook. The thinness didn't matter to me, typing feel felt so much more stable and solid. I don't believe it was created due to a pursuit of thinness. That said, I didn't have failures other than a couple of minor occurrences, twice I had to clean out my 2016 (with blown air), and never had any issues on my 2018.

Mayzie 6y ago
Same here! I’m on a 2019 MBP, and absolutely _love_ the butterfly keyboard. I have also had no issues with it. Then again, I find those that do love smashing their fingers down on the keys whereas I lightly tap which I really really like. I am really not looking forward to using a non-butterfly keyboard when I eventually have to upgrade :(
skocznymroczny 6y ago
Me too. I love butterfly keyboard. I like how crunchy it feels like typing. I wish they made external keyboards with butterfly mechanism because I'd love to have one for my PC.
wodenokoto 6y ago
I’m torn. I think it’s a great typing experience but they do break too easily.
dsego 6y ago
Do you touch type?

baby 6y ago

Anyone knows what happen if I bring my defective laptop back? Macbook air 2019. Can I return it or will they just fix the keyboard.

high_derivative 6y ago

I will never forget getting my Butterfly MBP repaired (within the warranty), and the Apple employee telling me it would have been $600 but they were generously doing this for free, this time.

erlich 6y ago

This is one of the few times someone has lied directly to my face, and I will always remember it. The issue was plastered all over the internet with people even writing apps to solve the issue by disabling key-repeat etc. I go into the store and say "my MacBook is doing the double key press thing, same issue everyone's talking about online", and the guy says to me "oh we are not aware of this". I should have done a Google search to show him all the posts in retrospect. It was such blatant bullshit. They repaired my MacBook under warranty, but just useless lying to customers.