5 ms·

This response totally misses the point. "Sorry about it, we rushed a bit the last update and introduce a severe bug. I'll try to fix it today and if I cannot,

by jlv2 6y ago

This response totally misses the point. "Sorry about it, we rushed a bit the last update and introduce a severe bug. I'll try to fix it today and if I cannot, rollback last grpcfuse patches."

elliotpage 6y ago
An addendum by another developer later on doubly misses the point: https://github.com/docker/roadmap/issues/183#issuecomment-750124955 https://github.com/docker/roadmap/issues/183#issuecomment-75...
- dmatech 6y ago
  It's common to be defensive with these sorts of things. I wish people would instead be inquisitive And ask about potential downsides vs. upsides, but it's much easier to respond that way when you feel like your job or status isn't at risk.
Zealotux 6y ago
It feels like an habit of the Docker team, they always try to defend their anti-user decisions with vague and uninspired corporate bs. They're barely trying. Another classic: https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910 https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910
- p1necone 6y ago
  Wowww: https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issuecomment-589179980 https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issue... What the hell does "Docker's new direction to go back to its roots and focus on developer tooling" even mean? Docker is developer tooling, that's the whole product. That's not "going back to your roots" that's just doing your damn job.
  - aidenn0 6y ago
    Is it developer tooling or deployment tooling?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - eyelidlessness 6y ago
      I think part of Docker’s value proposition is that it’s both.
  - thaJeztah 6y ago
    I wrote that comment at the time; to add some context to that comment: removal of the "login to download" was shortly after the "Docker Enterprise" business went to Mirantis. While Docker started as a developer centric tool, focus shifted to Enterprise products (Docker Enterprise Engine, UCP, Docker Trusted Registry, Docker Desktop Enterprise). After the move of the enterprise products to Mirantis, Docker's focus went back to developer products.
  - apple4ever 6y ago
    Oh my I had no idea they actually fixed it! Crazy it took 2 years, but at least they finally did!
  - SilasX 6y ago
    Yeah, a lot of times they don't seem to understand that their core product is "you can run this command, and the virtual machine will work on any system that runs Docker, limited only by resource availability". Heck within the first few weeks of dockerizing our system at a startup (c. 2015), they introduced a backward-incompatible change to docker-compose that we only found when onboarding new employees -- the exact thing it's supposed to be for!
- microtherion 6y ago
  These may simply be issues that are not at the discretion of these developers to either change or discuss with third parties. As tempting as it is to weigh in publicly on such matters, the best way for a developer to get results is often to say little in public and try to resolve the issue behind the scenes (as was apparently done here).
  - wmf 6y ago
    The honest way to handle this would be for the CEO to say something like "I made this decision and I accept responsibility for it".
    - eyelidlessness 6y ago
      And the paucity of honesty in public communications is a testament to how few CEOs (and others in a leadership role who could buck-stops-here) are that sincere, willing to take that kind of heat, or to invest in understanding the problem in the first place. It’s also often a testament to how pathologically organizationally shielded they often are; I’d bet money even 5k thumbsdowns on an issue doesn’t bubble up to the top at most orgs.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  > we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward "How should we improve user experience? I know! Let's ruin user experience by forcing users to signup for an account they don't actually need! Brilliant!"
capableweb 6y ago
Yes, it does. But your comment also misses the conclusion of the discussion: https://github.com/docker/roadmap/issues/183#issuecomment-802018948 https://github.com/docker/roadmap/issues/183#issuecomment-80... In the end, seems they are changing course after listening to user feedback. Clearly auto-updating works in some contexts, but not in others, and now we can all learn from it :)
- dvt 6y ago
  > Clearly auto-updating works in some contexts, but not in others, and now we can all learn from it :) I think the point was that we all knew auto-updating doesn't make sense in the context of developer tools. I'd even argue GitHub Desktop shouldn't be auto-updating. As a matter of fact, VSCode doesn't, and my compilers certainly don't.
  - capableweb 6y ago
    Agree. "I was just following a successful model" is not the right way to approach engineering, without understanding the trade-offs and it seems that step was missed when implementing it in the first place.
    - yellowapple 6y ago
      Indeed, "I was just following a successful model" is exactly why software seems to have progressively gotten worse over the years. "Google does it and therefore I should, too!" No, you should maybe - just maybe - consider, you know, talking to your users and asking them what they want for once, and actually listening when they tell you. And this applies outside of software, too. Apple dropped the headphone jack, so guess what every other phone manufacturer wants to do? Samsung shoved ads into its smart TVs, so guess what every other TV manufacturer wants to do? So much for product differentiation.
  - eyelidlessness 6y ago
    > As a matter of fact, VSCode doesn't It does by default, using roughly the same method. Gratefully you can turn it off. Edit: gratefully in terms of peace of mind. I’ve only ever been pleased when I do finally let VSCode updates install.
coldtea 6y ago
They also explain why the think what they do is the way to go, nonethless, in the very next paragraph.
protomyth 6y ago
Well, the Also I'm going to move this into the roadmap, as it's a feature request not a bug. is just as bad. If the process broke my desktop then it is a bug.
- naikrovek 6y ago
  What if it was intended to break something? Still a bug? I say "no." By your definition, all viruses, malware, and ransomware are simply bugs.
  - eyelidlessness 6y ago
    I can solve this silly debate by using the jargon of our times. It doesn’t matter whether it’s a bug, design flaw, dark pattern, bad UX, feature request. It’s a... Defect!
  - protomyth 6y ago
    If your software ships viruses, malware, and ransomware to a customer as part of an update / install then it most certainly a bug that needs to be fixed now.
    - naikrovek 6y ago
      You've apparently missed my point entirely. Well done. I am talking about the malware itself... Pretend you write malware. Your malware does what you want it to do: it destroys data. Is the data destruction a bug? Nope. Not a defect, either. It's a feature; the intended effect. Docker intended for Docker Desktop to auto update. So, it's not a bug, but a feature. Misguided feature? Sure. User-hostile feature? Yep! It's a feature, anyway.
      - protomyth 6y ago
        Talking about malware has no point in this unless we are talking about something shipped with docker. It is most definitely a bug (or defect) when the software cannot run.

by jlv2 6y ago

This response totally misses the point. "Sorry about it, we rushed a bit the last update and introduce a severe bug. I'll try to fix it today and if I cannot, rollback last grpcfuse patches."

elliotpage 6y ago

An addendum by another developer later on doubly misses the point: https://github.com/docker/roadmap/issues/183#issuecomment-750124955 https://github.com/docker/roadmap/issues/183#issuecomment-75...

dmatech 6y ago
It's common to be defensive with these sorts of things. I wish people would instead be inquisitive And ask about potential downsides vs. upsides, but it's much easier to respond that way when you feel like your job or status isn't at risk.

Zealotux 6y ago

It feels like an habit of the Docker team, they always try to defend their anti-user decisions with vague and uninspired corporate bs. They're barely trying. Another classic: https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910 https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910

p1necone 6y ago
Wowww: https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issuecomment-589179980 https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issue... What the hell does "Docker's new direction to go back to its roots and focus on developer tooling" even mean? Docker is developer tooling, that's the whole product. That's not "going back to your roots" that's just doing your damn job.
- aidenn0 6y ago
  Is it developer tooling or deployment tooling?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - eyelidlessness 6y ago
    I think part of Docker’s value proposition is that it’s both.
- thaJeztah 6y ago
  I wrote that comment at the time; to add some context to that comment: removal of the "login to download" was shortly after the "Docker Enterprise" business went to Mirantis. While Docker started as a developer centric tool, focus shifted to Enterprise products (Docker Enterprise Engine, UCP, Docker Trusted Registry, Docker Desktop Enterprise). After the move of the enterprise products to Mirantis, Docker's focus went back to developer products.
- apple4ever 6y ago
  Oh my I had no idea they actually fixed it! Crazy it took 2 years, but at least they finally did!
- SilasX 6y ago
  Yeah, a lot of times they don't seem to understand that their core product is "you can run this command, and the virtual machine will work on any system that runs Docker, limited only by resource availability". Heck within the first few weeks of dockerizing our system at a startup (c. 2015), they introduced a backward-incompatible change to docker-compose that we only found when onboarding new employees -- the exact thing it's supposed to be for!
microtherion 6y ago
These may simply be issues that are not at the discretion of these developers to either change or discuss with third parties. As tempting as it is to weigh in publicly on such matters, the best way for a developer to get results is often to say little in public and try to resolve the issue behind the scenes (as was apparently done here).
- wmf 6y ago
  The honest way to handle this would be for the CEO to say something like "I made this decision and I accept responsibility for it".
  - eyelidlessness 6y ago
    And the paucity of honesty in public communications is a testament to how few CEOs (and others in a leadership role who could buck-stops-here) are that sincere, willing to take that kind of heat, or to invest in understanding the problem in the first place. It’s also often a testament to how pathologically organizationally shielded they often are; I’d bet money even 5k thumbsdowns on an issue doesn’t bubble up to the top at most orgs.
yellowapple 6y ago
> we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward "How should we improve user experience? I know! Let's ruin user experience by forcing users to signup for an account they don't actually need! Brilliant!"

capableweb 6y ago

Yes, it does. But your comment also misses the conclusion of the discussion: https://github.com/docker/roadmap/issues/183#issuecomment-802018948 https://github.com/docker/roadmap/issues/183#issuecomment-80... In the end, seems they are changing course after listening to user feedback. Clearly auto-updating works in some contexts, but not in others, and now we can all learn from it :)

dvt 6y ago
> Clearly auto-updating works in some contexts, but not in others, and now we can all learn from it :) I think the point was that we all knew auto-updating doesn't make sense in the context of developer tools. I'd even argue GitHub Desktop shouldn't be auto-updating. As a matter of fact, VSCode doesn't, and my compilers certainly don't.
- capableweb 6y ago
  Agree. "I was just following a successful model" is not the right way to approach engineering, without understanding the trade-offs and it seems that step was missed when implementing it in the first place.
  - yellowapple 6y ago
    Indeed, "I was just following a successful model" is exactly why software seems to have progressively gotten worse over the years. "Google does it and therefore I should, too!" No, you should maybe - just maybe - consider, you know, talking to your users and asking them what they want for once, and actually listening when they tell you. And this applies outside of software, too. Apple dropped the headphone jack, so guess what every other phone manufacturer wants to do? Samsung shoved ads into its smart TVs, so guess what every other TV manufacturer wants to do? So much for product differentiation.
- eyelidlessness 6y ago
  > As a matter of fact, VSCode doesn't It does by default, using roughly the same method. Gratefully you can turn it off. Edit: gratefully in terms of peace of mind. I’ve only ever been pleased when I do finally let VSCode updates install.

coldtea 6y ago

They also explain why the think what they do is the way to go, nonethless, in the very next paragraph.

protomyth 6y ago

Well, the Also I'm going to move this into the roadmap, as it's a feature request not a bug. is just as bad. If the process broke my desktop then it is a bug.

naikrovek 6y ago
What if it was intended to break something? Still a bug? I say "no." By your definition, all viruses, malware, and ransomware are simply bugs.
- eyelidlessness 6y ago
  I can solve this silly debate by using the jargon of our times. It doesn’t matter whether it’s a bug, design flaw, dark pattern, bad UX, feature request. It’s a... Defect!
- protomyth 6y ago
  If your software ships viruses, malware, and ransomware to a customer as part of an update / install then it most certainly a bug that needs to be fixed now.
  - naikrovek 6y ago
    You've apparently missed my point entirely. Well done. I am talking about the malware itself... Pretend you write malware. Your malware does what you want it to do: it destroys data. Is the data destruction a bug? Nope. Not a defect, either. It's a feature; the intended effect. Docker intended for Docker Desktop to auto update. So, it's not a bug, but a feature. Misguided feature? Sure. User-hostile feature? Yep! It's a feature, anyway.
    - protomyth 6y ago
      Talking about malware has no point in this unless we are talking about something shipped with docker. It is most definitely a bug (or defect) when the software cannot run.