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More importantly: what is their CO2 efficiency? How much GDP and science do they output per unit of CO2? India is close to Italy in Scientific output [1]: 1040

More importantly: what is their CO2 efficiency? How much GDP and science do they output per unit of CO2? India is close to Italy in Scientific output [1]: 1040 units vs 1104 respectively. India's CO2e output is 2.62 billion tonnes, vs Italy 337 million tonnes. India's GDP is $2.869trillion vs $2.004 trillion. India's population is 1,336million vs Italy 60 million. So, India consumes 7.7x the Earth's CO2 budget, but generates only .94x the scientific output and 1.43x the GDP. Or put another way: the average Italian consumes 2.86x the CO2 as the average Indian, but generates 23x the scientific output and 15x the GDP. Its really the 2nd and 3rd world who are flagrant wasters of the Earth's resources, not the developed world. Looking at CO2 on a per-capita basis is basically irrelevant. The inescapable solution to climate change and resource degradation is population reduction of the 2nd and 3rd world to density and intensity levels seen in the 1st world, or perhaps even lower seeing as housing is typically unaffordable in most 1st world countries. This would suggest a sustainable population of India of about 650 million - which was the population of the country as recently as 1977 [4]. [1] https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/global/All/score https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/glo... [2] https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/india https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/india [3] https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/italy https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/italy [4] https://www.populationpyramid.net/india/1977/ https://www.populationpyramid.net/india/1977/

snarf21 6y ago
It is such an unpopular opinion but this is the answer. Humans are selfish. The earth can't sustain 8B+ people. Maybe 2B max with some technological advances for cleaner cars and other renewables.
- rocknor 6y ago
  It is rightfully unpopular, because it's not based on facts. The earth could easily sustain 8B+ people if certain countries do not over-consume as they are currently. But you are right, people are selfish, especially these over-consumers.
  - kazinator 6y ago
    I think it's better for 2B billion to enjoy life, than for 20B to live under some miserable constraints.
    - rocknor 6y ago
      Pretty stupid thing to say. UN predicts 11B humans at peak. Certain new studies predict 9.7B. Global average birth rate is already close to replacement levels. The earth population that can enjoy life is not fixed at 2B, that's very myopic thinking. We should fund science & tech so that it's possible for 11B people to enjoy life without damaging the planet, instead of blaming the "others" based on racist anti-science attitudes and deliberately keeping them poor by punishing them economically. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzBAxcJDSsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzBAxcJDSsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsBT5EQt348 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsBT5EQt348 http://www.overpopulation.world/ http://www.overpopulation.world/ https://overpopulationisamyth.com/ https://overpopulationisamyth.com/ https://www.gapminder.org/ https://www.gapminder.org/
- Tepix 6y ago
  It's a very arrogant comment indeed. A human's permitted CO2 output should not depend on how much she/he contributes to science or even the GDP. Anyway, earth could very well sustain even 20 billion people according to Martin Rees (in "On the Future"). It does require that we really reduce our resource usage, however. Going vegan, using virtual reality instead of travelling etc. Luckily the trends seem to indicate we won't reach more than 11 billion (which is still way too much at today's resource usage) before the numbers go down.
  - kazinator 6y ago
    > Going vegan, using virtual reality instead of travelling etc. Heck, a trillion or more, if we all agree to be suspended in tanks and fed by tubes!
rocknor 6y ago
What an ignorant comment. It just shows a failure of supposedly "superior" Western education, your citizens are deliberately kept uninformed in a desperate attempt to hold on to the power that was unfairly acquired by exploiting much of the world. Your arrogance just cannot bear equality, can you? The days of Western dominance are numbered, you cannot stop it. World power has been gradually shifting eastwards, rightfully. This is the Asian century. Literally the only thing that matters is CO2 per capita. India's is way low. The low scientic output is a consequence of low per-capita income, it has been increasing and will keep increasing, will definitely cross Italy's (having lived in South Europe I know how the culture here is). It's only a matter of time. India's population has always been historically very high due to fertile lands. It would have been much lower, but 200 years of British colonialism deliberately kept Indians in poverty, keeping birth rates high. And suggesting population reduction - how exactly will you do that? Genocide? War? Try it and see how that goes. You should focus on reducing your arrogance, racism, denial of facts, and over-consumption. You are not better than others. Learn some morals. The real solution to climate change is science & technology. Our current consumption level is just not inline with the current renewable tech. You just want to forcefully keep the rest of the world poor so you can enjoy driving your SUVs and eating steaks, while somehow blaming the rest of the world based on some made-up metrics. Guess what that's not gonna happen. Try it if you can.

snarf21 6y ago

It is such an unpopular opinion but this is the answer. Humans are selfish. The earth can't sustain 8B+ people. Maybe 2B max with some technological advances for cleaner cars and other renewables.

rocknor 6y ago
It is rightfully unpopular, because it's not based on facts. The earth could easily sustain 8B+ people if certain countries do not over-consume as they are currently. But you are right, people are selfish, especially these over-consumers.
- kazinator 6y ago
  I think it's better for 2B billion to enjoy life, than for 20B to live under some miserable constraints.
  - rocknor 6y ago
    Pretty stupid thing to say. UN predicts 11B humans at peak. Certain new studies predict 9.7B. Global average birth rate is already close to replacement levels. The earth population that can enjoy life is not fixed at 2B, that's very myopic thinking. We should fund science & tech so that it's possible for 11B people to enjoy life without damaging the planet, instead of blaming the "others" based on racist anti-science attitudes and deliberately keeping them poor by punishing them economically. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzBAxcJDSsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzBAxcJDSsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsBT5EQt348 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsBT5EQt348 http://www.overpopulation.world/ http://www.overpopulation.world/ https://overpopulationisamyth.com/ https://overpopulationisamyth.com/ https://www.gapminder.org/ https://www.gapminder.org/
Tepix 6y ago
It's a very arrogant comment indeed. A human's permitted CO2 output should not depend on how much she/he contributes to science or even the GDP. Anyway, earth could very well sustain even 20 billion people according to Martin Rees (in "On the Future"). It does require that we really reduce our resource usage, however. Going vegan, using virtual reality instead of travelling etc. Luckily the trends seem to indicate we won't reach more than 11 billion (which is still way too much at today's resource usage) before the numbers go down.
- kazinator 6y ago
  > Going vegan, using virtual reality instead of travelling etc. Heck, a trillion or more, if we all agree to be suspended in tanks and fed by tubes!

rocknor 6y ago

What an ignorant comment. It just shows a failure of supposedly "superior" Western education, your citizens are deliberately kept uninformed in a desperate attempt to hold on to the power that was unfairly acquired by exploiting much of the world. Your arrogance just cannot bear equality, can you? The days of Western dominance are numbered, you cannot stop it. World power has been gradually shifting eastwards, rightfully. This is the Asian century. Literally the only thing that matters is CO2 per capita. India's is way low. The low scientic output is a consequence of low per-capita income, it has been increasing and will keep increasing, will definitely cross Italy's (having lived in South Europe I know how the culture here is). It's only a matter of time. India's population has always been historically very high due to fertile lands. It would have been much lower, but 200 years of British colonialism deliberately kept Indians in poverty, keeping birth rates high. And suggesting population reduction - how exactly will you do that? Genocide? War? Try it and see how that goes. You should focus on reducing your arrogance, racism, denial of facts, and over-consumption. You are not better than others. Learn some morals. The real solution to climate change is science & technology. Our current consumption level is just not inline with the current renewable tech. You just want to forcefully keep the rest of the world poor so you can enjoy driving your SUVs and eating steaks, while somehow blaming the rest of the world based on some made-up metrics. Guess what that's not gonna happen. Try it if you can.