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The thing is, if farmers in Australia increase wages and thus their product becomes more expensive, the product on supermarket shelves will not become more expe

The thing is, if farmers in Australia increase wages and thus their product becomes more expensive, the product on supermarket shelves will not become more expensive. Rather, supermarkets will import food from another country. Food is, with few exceptions, a commodity. The producer does not set the price of the commodity, the market does. I am telling this as an engineer working in the Canada's oil and gas sector. Since 2014, salaries in our sector have decreased and firms are struggling. "Just raise the price of oil" is not an actionable advice. The price of oil is not ours to set. It's the market's

ksec 6y ago
It just shows most people working in Tech Industry, and specifically software ( or web ) development ( as oppose to Tech / software within Oil Industry or any other industry ) have absolutely zero idea on market or commodity trading.
wing-_-nuts 6y ago
I consider food security a national security issue. Produce is one of the few areas where I would consider a tarif justified. Every country should be able to feed it's citizens with the food grown there, or they risk hunger when cut off by war or natural disaster.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  And countries do that, but for a few strategic ones, not everything. Canada produces lots of wheat and dairy and maple syrup. It even has a strategic maple syrup reserve. But it does not produce a lot of citrus fruits or pistachios or dates. It may be possible for US to produce everything within the country—it is a gigantic country and has just about every climate there is. But it would be an ecological disaster if countries without those attributes do the same. Think of all the heating required to produce warm-climate fruits in Canada.
  - wing-_-nuts 6y ago
    Oh! One of my favorite ag articles talked about the challenges of growing oranges in russia! https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/04/fruit-trenches-cultivating-subtropical-plants-in-freezing-temperatures.html https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/04/fruit-trenches-culti... You're absolutely right that perhaps not everything should be grown everywhere, but I strongly believe that a country should have a local source of all the calories and vitamins / minerals they need. In Canada, for example, maybe they encourage farmers to grow greens, brocolli or potatoes instead of citrus for vitamin c, but they absolutely need a source.
Symbiote 6y ago
The EU sets fairly high tariffs on food imports, since food security means we must maintain local food production. Australia does not use this approach, and instead seems to have pushed other countries to eliminate their own tariffs for the TPP.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  What tariff does is that it moves the price point at which the retailers switch to imports a bit higher. Tariff does not eliminate the ceiling. There still would be a ceiling on price, determined by international commodity price + X% tariff.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    So the tariff needs to be high enough to be absolutely ruinous. See, for example, Canada's tariff on dairy. Since Canada runs a cartel on dairy producers, Canada does set the domestic price of milk at $4/gal. This is incompatible with the US subsidy model, where it prices out to around $1.50 a gallon -- so there's a 270% tariff on dairy imports. The great thing about numbers is there's always a bigger one.
    - smnrchrds 6y ago
      Yes, you can do that. It's not something the farmers strapped for workers can do, but the government certainly can. It would not be particularly popular in most political climates, so passing such laws in democracies are always difficult. But as the Canada example shows, not impossible.
csomar 6y ago
Apples and Oranges. If you include global supply, then you have to increase salaries "globally". We all (I assume) should know that demand/supply set the price. But imported products don't fly right into the country. There is customs, and denying/tariffing them is a policy that countries are very actively using. So at the end of the day, it's a political decision. Edit: On the other hand, if you are exporting stuff (oil for Canada), then you can't really do that for the external market. Might explain why the government will let some sectors run with illegals (to remain competitive); the alternative being their ultimate demise.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  If you ban import X from a country, the country will likely ban import Y from your country in retaliation. Sometimes the net effect would still be in your favour, but often times it would not be. Do you know why American brands dominate the US truck market? It started with a tariff on American chicken by some European countries and it quickly snowballed into much more [0][1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/01/25/511663527/episode-632-the-chicken-tax https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/01/25/511663527/epis...
zentiggr 6y ago
So.... reduce production, and supply/demand curves should get you back financially on track? Of course, you might get pilloried for the artificial scarcity, but hey... nobody ever likes the capitalist :)
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  We reduce production, US, Russia, and Saudi Arabia would be more than happy to fill the gap. Actually Saudi Arabia prefers prices that are lower than the strike point for non-traditional oil, so it can get rid of competition from likes of Canada. How should we convince Russia and Saudi Arabia to take a hit to their exports in order to help us out, when we cannot even convince our biggest ally, the US?

ksec 6y ago

It just shows most people working in Tech Industry, and specifically software ( or web ) development ( as oppose to Tech / software within Oil Industry or any other industry ) have absolutely zero idea on market or commodity trading.

wing-_-nuts 6y ago

I consider food security a national security issue. Produce is one of the few areas where I would consider a tarif justified. Every country should be able to feed it's citizens with the food grown there, or they risk hunger when cut off by war or natural disaster.

smnrchrds 6y ago
And countries do that, but for a few strategic ones, not everything. Canada produces lots of wheat and dairy and maple syrup. It even has a strategic maple syrup reserve. But it does not produce a lot of citrus fruits or pistachios or dates. It may be possible for US to produce everything within the country—it is a gigantic country and has just about every climate there is. But it would be an ecological disaster if countries without those attributes do the same. Think of all the heating required to produce warm-climate fruits in Canada.
- wing-_-nuts 6y ago
  Oh! One of my favorite ag articles talked about the challenges of growing oranges in russia! https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/04/fruit-trenches-cultivating-subtropical-plants-in-freezing-temperatures.html https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/04/fruit-trenches-culti... You're absolutely right that perhaps not everything should be grown everywhere, but I strongly believe that a country should have a local source of all the calories and vitamins / minerals they need. In Canada, for example, maybe they encourage farmers to grow greens, brocolli or potatoes instead of citrus for vitamin c, but they absolutely need a source.

Symbiote 6y ago

The EU sets fairly high tariffs on food imports, since food security means we must maintain local food production. Australia does not use this approach, and instead seems to have pushed other countries to eliminate their own tariffs for the TPP.

smnrchrds 6y ago
What tariff does is that it moves the price point at which the retailers switch to imports a bit higher. Tariff does not eliminate the ceiling. There still would be a ceiling on price, determined by international commodity price + X% tariff.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  So the tariff needs to be high enough to be absolutely ruinous. See, for example, Canada's tariff on dairy. Since Canada runs a cartel on dairy producers, Canada does set the domestic price of milk at $4/gal. This is incompatible with the US subsidy model, where it prices out to around $1.50 a gallon -- so there's a 270% tariff on dairy imports. The great thing about numbers is there's always a bigger one.
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    Yes, you can do that. It's not something the farmers strapped for workers can do, but the government certainly can. It would not be particularly popular in most political climates, so passing such laws in democracies are always difficult. But as the Canada example shows, not impossible.

csomar 6y ago

Apples and Oranges. If you include global supply, then you have to increase salaries "globally". We all (I assume) should know that demand/supply set the price. But imported products don't fly right into the country. There is customs, and denying/tariffing them is a policy that countries are very actively using. So at the end of the day, it's a political decision. Edit: On the other hand, if you are exporting stuff (oil for Canada), then you can't really do that for the external market. Might explain why the government will let some sectors run with illegals (to remain competitive); the alternative being their ultimate demise.

smnrchrds 6y ago
If you ban import X from a country, the country will likely ban import Y from your country in retaliation. Sometimes the net effect would still be in your favour, but often times it would not be. Do you know why American brands dominate the US truck market? It started with a tariff on American chicken by some European countries and it quickly snowballed into much more [0][1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/01/25/511663527/episode-632-the-chicken-tax https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/01/25/511663527/epis...

zentiggr 6y ago

So.... reduce production, and supply/demand curves should get you back financially on track? Of course, you might get pilloried for the artificial scarcity, but hey... nobody ever likes the capitalist :)

smnrchrds 6y ago
We reduce production, US, Russia, and Saudi Arabia would be more than happy to fill the gap. Actually Saudi Arabia prefers prices that are lower than the strike point for non-traditional oil, so it can get rid of competition from likes of Canada. How should we convince Russia and Saudi Arabia to take a hit to their exports in order to help us out, when we cannot even convince our biggest ally, the US?