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>Python projects that are built with Python 3.6 are usable in Python 3.7 projects for example. This has not been my experience in the Machine Learning space.

high_density 6y ago
for most simple HTTP webservers, python maintains somewhat OK-ish source/binary compatibility between python-versions. But my experience with scala was things breaking between scala-versions / waiting for some library to compile with next scala-version... I'm surprised why scala couldn't solve it better than python -- I mean, scala's a compiled language, so it should have more wriggle-room...
- AzzieElbab 6y ago
  it is intentional. scala maintainers want to keep the language evolving faster than python/java. if you look at scala3/dotty, it actually is a very different language than scala2
- Someone 6y ago
  Scala’s type system doesn’t map perfectly to that of the JVM, so they had to bend the latter to implement scala. That’s similar to how C++ compilers bend the rules to confirm with C linkers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_mangling#C++ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_mangling#C++), but much more complex because of the richer type system of the JVM. Scala developers aren’t willing to freeze that mapping, partly because they found out better ways to do such mappings, and partly because they keep changing the language, changing what was the best way to do that mapping. I think it’s easier for interpreted languages to keep their internals compatible. They are willing to give up some speed for convenience, so even if they think “I wish we had done that differently”, the pressure to change it isn’t that high. They also keep more metadata around. In some cases, that enables them to discover “this is using the old way to do Foo”, and fix that up to use the new way.
lindig 6y ago
Python is distributed in source code and it sounds like Scala dependencies are distributed as JAR files. The compatibility problems when moving compilers are not entirely unexpected, I'd say.
- high_density 6y ago
  but scala's cousin kotlin doesn't seem to suffer from this a lot... kotlin library-packages don't have kotlin-version to their download link... maybe I'm missing something?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
    Kotlin is a “better Java”. Scala is sort of a tug of war between a better Java and a worse Haskell. More importantly Kotlin is designed to be as straightforwardly compatible with Java at the bytecode level as possible. Scala isnt.
valiant55 6y ago
Could you provide any specific examples? I've never had any problems swapping between versions but I don't do anything in the ML space.
- bjourne 6y ago
  Python 3.9 was released on October 5, 2020, but TensorFlow still doesn't support it. But that's an aberration and most of the time and for most packages minor Python releases doesn't break them.

high_density 6y ago

for most simple HTTP webservers, python maintains somewhat OK-ish source/binary compatibility between python-versions. But my experience with scala was things breaking between scala-versions / waiting for some library to compile with next scala-version... I'm surprised why scala couldn't solve it better than python -- I mean, scala's a compiled language, so it should have more wriggle-room...

AzzieElbab 6y ago
it is intentional. scala maintainers want to keep the language evolving faster than python/java. if you look at scala3/dotty, it actually is a very different language than scala2
Someone 6y ago
Scala’s type system doesn’t map perfectly to that of the JVM, so they had to bend the latter to implement scala. That’s similar to how C++ compilers bend the rules to confirm with C linkers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_mangling#C++ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_mangling#C++), but much more complex because of the richer type system of the JVM. Scala developers aren’t willing to freeze that mapping, partly because they found out better ways to do such mappings, and partly because they keep changing the language, changing what was the best way to do that mapping. I think it’s easier for interpreted languages to keep their internals compatible. They are willing to give up some speed for convenience, so even if they think “I wish we had done that differently”, the pressure to change it isn’t that high. They also keep more metadata around. In some cases, that enables them to discover “this is using the old way to do Foo”, and fix that up to use the new way.

lindig 6y ago

Python is distributed in source code and it sounds like Scala dependencies are distributed as JAR files. The compatibility problems when moving compilers are not entirely unexpected, I'd say.

high_density 6y ago
but scala's cousin kotlin doesn't seem to suffer from this a lot... kotlin library-packages don't have kotlin-version to their download link... maybe I'm missing something?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
  Kotlin is a “better Java”. Scala is sort of a tug of war between a better Java and a worse Haskell. More importantly Kotlin is designed to be as straightforwardly compatible with Java at the bytecode level as possible. Scala isnt.

valiant55 6y ago

Could you provide any specific examples? I've never had any problems swapping between versions but I don't do anything in the ML space.

bjourne 6y ago
Python 3.9 was released on October 5, 2020, but TensorFlow still doesn't support it. But that's an aberration and most of the time and for most packages minor Python releases doesn't break them.