4 ms·

As a European I feel disturbed and ashamed of how the EU, the self proclaimed "peace project", is conducting itself towards the UK - starting from the first ref

As a European I feel disturbed and ashamed of how the EU, the self proclaimed "peace project", is conducting itself towards the UK - starting from the first referendum throughout the whole pandemic.

ceejayoz 6y ago
I mean, for the peace project to work, people have to participate. It shouldn't be at all surprising that the EU tried to prevent a major member from departing, and it shouldn't be surprising they're prioritizing their own needs after that exit.
- toshk 6y ago
  They didn't try to prevent it. They bullied them in order to scare other nations to try something similar. I would rather an EU that listen's to the people of it's member and makes them want to stay instead of pushing the agenda of the bureaucrats and bully them into staying. Over the last decades many EU nations had referendums, and it was clear the majority of the people in many countries are agains further expansion of EU power. Yet the EU bureaucrats didn't listen and kept pushing as a result even more people feel alineated with the EU project, the Brexit is in direct line of these developments. And even now they still keep pushing.
  - that_guy_iain 6y ago
    > They bullied them in order to scare other nations to try something similar. No they didn't, the UK drew the red lines not the EU. The UK punished themselves. They could have gotten a Switzerland deal, a Norway deal, a Turkey deal, etc they decided they didn't like those deals.
    - toshk 6y ago
      Those countries are not part of the EU, not sure what point you are trying to make. This was not negotiated as a friendly trade deal as done with Canada, US, Swiss etc. It was clear they were doing something the EU doesn't want to make an example off. Tensions from both sides. Edit: Aha, I understand know you mean they could have gotten the same deals as them. If you have sources for this, please share, but as far as I know this is not true. Take for instance this excerpt from the Financial Times: "Slides presented to EU member states this week by the European Commission suggest it is looking for something far more sophisticated and hard-hitting for Britain. If Brussels has its way, the system will govern not just the two sides’ future trade relationship but several other partnerships in areas such as security and judicial co-operation, joint research, and aviation. One of the key motivations for the EU is to avoid replicating the unruly jumble of agreements that govern its deep relations with Switzerland — whose population in 1992 rejected a proposal to join the European Economic Area. The two sides have subsequently built their relationship up over time, resulting in no fewer than 100 agreements governing their relations. "
      - dgellow 6y ago
        Well, that's the point, no? The UK decided to leave but refused all the existing forms of bilateral agreements. The country mentioned by the comment you responded to all have some form of bilateral agreements with the EU, there are a lot of ways to be a close partner with the EU without being part of the union. Switzerland is part of the Schengen area and we regularly renegotiate (and vote on) new agreements. Norway is also part of the Schengen area, but also part of the EEA (European Economic Area). Turkey is part of the European Custom Union. The UK decided to go its own way instead. This interactive SVG gives a good overview: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Supranat.... CGP Grey did a great video in 2019, though it's of course a bit outdated now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E.
      - that_guy_iain 6y ago
        > This was not negotiated as a friendly trade deal as done with Canada, US etc. It was clear they were doing something the EU doesn't want to make an example off. Tensions from both sides. No, Canada and the US are literally an ocean away. The UK is so close you can swim there. The EU made it clear that a it makes no sense to have the same deal as a partner that is on the other side of the world than it does to have with a partner that is so close and have other interests and conflicts to discuss. All the deals I used as examples are better deals than the Canada and US deals they were all offered and rejected by the UK.
      - toyg 6y ago
        Everyone in the EU would have preferred a Norway-shaped deal. Switzerland was off the table (and is itself likely to go away over the next decade, for the reasons you mention), but Norway or Turkey were absolutely available, and it was signaled very clearly in 2016 and again all the way to 2019. The insistence on leaving the Custom Union on the UK side, however, precluded any scenario like that. The absence of a Swiss option was very well-known, even before the referendum, to anyone who paid any attention to actual EU policies. They see Switzerland as a mistake, ever since the country tried to walk back on its commitment to the four freedoms, and will absolutely not repeat that mistake ever again.
akmarinov 6y ago
As a European, I feel like this decision finally makes it so that the EU prioritizes its citizens' health and its economy in front of other third countries. Hopefully they follow up with Pfizer and Janssen until such time that at least 50% of the EU is vaccinated.
- dgellow 6y ago
  That has little to do with this. Here the fundamental disagreement is on contracts signed with AstraZeneca.
that_guy_iain 6y ago
Have you noticed how the UK has been acting politically? They're literally risking a no deal Brexit because they're basically not upholding the deal they got out of the kindness of the EU's heart. The only reason the UK had a deal was the EU went out of their way to make it happen. And the fact before the referendum for Brexit the EU gave the UK better terms than they already had when they already had the best deal in the EU and you're ashamed of this?` The whole vaccine thing seems to be the UK has their risk groups covered the EU hasn't. Seems one needs the vaccine more than the other in terms of saving lives. But honestly, it all really breaks down to the fact the UK has been pissing all over the EU for years. This is what happens when you have no politcal capital in a politcal arena.
dgellow 6y ago
What made you feel disturbed and ashamed? That may be my pan-European bias talking but I didn't notice bad behavior from the EU against the UK (or at least nothing crossing the line, there is of course harsh negotiations between both entities, but that's expected when you leave such a group). While UK officials and media repeatedly demonized the EU for the past ~5 years.
- idownvoted 6y ago
  > That may be my pan-European bias Or in other words: The excuse for being aggressivly nationalistic towards other nations, without the need to call it nationalism. This behaviour is particulary present across European high-educated middle- and upper-class circles and in general in Germany. In short: in areas of a society which have trouble celebrating their roots, because it grounds them. Next to their lower class neighbours or distant un-urban relatives. > While UK officials and media repeatedly demonized the EU for the past ~5 years. From following the three elections regarding Brexit (the Referendum, the EU parliamentary vote and the British Election in 2019): to claim that a majority of the British media, politicians and business elites sturred the anti-EU sentiment is utter, utter nonsense. The vast majority of domestic political parties favours the EU soley for the fact, that it gives them twice the amount of taxpayer payed positions they could shuffle their members into. And so did most of the British parties.
  - dgellow 6y ago
    > This behaviour is particulary present across European high-educated middle- and upper-class circles and in general in Germany. In short: in areas of a society which have trouble celebrating their roots, because it grounds them. Next to their lower class neighbours or distant un-urban relatives. Wait until you learn that I'm Swiss, generally proud of my country and its history and people, do not have a European citizenship, have no form of high-education (my highest formal certificate is from an apprenticeship, I'm self-taught and built my software engineer career myself by learning directly on the job), and come from a single-parent family categorized as "lower class" by wealth statistics. Other than attacking an imaginary "elite" persona I'm supposed to embody, do you have some actual points to discuss regarding feeling "disturbed" and "ashamed" by the EU?

As a European I feel disturbed and ashamed of how the EU, the self proclaimed "peace project", is conducting itself towards the UK - starting from the first referendum throughout the whole pandemic.

ceejayoz 6y ago

I mean, for the peace project to work, people have to participate. It shouldn't be at all surprising that the EU tried to prevent a major member from departing, and it shouldn't be surprising they're prioritizing their own needs after that exit.

toshk 6y ago
They didn't try to prevent it. They bullied them in order to scare other nations to try something similar. I would rather an EU that listen's to the people of it's member and makes them want to stay instead of pushing the agenda of the bureaucrats and bully them into staying. Over the last decades many EU nations had referendums, and it was clear the majority of the people in many countries are agains further expansion of EU power. Yet the EU bureaucrats didn't listen and kept pushing as a result even more people feel alineated with the EU project, the Brexit is in direct line of these developments. And even now they still keep pushing.
- that_guy_iain 6y ago
  > They bullied them in order to scare other nations to try something similar. No they didn't, the UK drew the red lines not the EU. The UK punished themselves. They could have gotten a Switzerland deal, a Norway deal, a Turkey deal, etc they decided they didn't like those deals.
  - toshk 6y ago
    Those countries are not part of the EU, not sure what point you are trying to make. This was not negotiated as a friendly trade deal as done with Canada, US, Swiss etc. It was clear they were doing something the EU doesn't want to make an example off. Tensions from both sides. Edit: Aha, I understand know you mean they could have gotten the same deals as them. If you have sources for this, please share, but as far as I know this is not true. Take for instance this excerpt from the Financial Times: "Slides presented to EU member states this week by the European Commission suggest it is looking for something far more sophisticated and hard-hitting for Britain. If Brussels has its way, the system will govern not just the two sides’ future trade relationship but several other partnerships in areas such as security and judicial co-operation, joint research, and aviation. One of the key motivations for the EU is to avoid replicating the unruly jumble of agreements that govern its deep relations with Switzerland — whose population in 1992 rejected a proposal to join the European Economic Area. The two sides have subsequently built their relationship up over time, resulting in no fewer than 100 agreements governing their relations. "
    - dgellow 6y ago
      Well, that's the point, no? The UK decided to leave but refused all the existing forms of bilateral agreements. The country mentioned by the comment you responded to all have some form of bilateral agreements with the EU, there are a lot of ways to be a close partner with the EU without being part of the union. Switzerland is part of the Schengen area and we regularly renegotiate (and vote on) new agreements. Norway is also part of the Schengen area, but also part of the EEA (European Economic Area). Turkey is part of the European Custom Union. The UK decided to go its own way instead. This interactive SVG gives a good overview: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Supranat.... CGP Grey did a great video in 2019, though it's of course a bit outdated now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E.
    - that_guy_iain 6y ago
      > This was not negotiated as a friendly trade deal as done with Canada, US etc. It was clear they were doing something the EU doesn't want to make an example off. Tensions from both sides. No, Canada and the US are literally an ocean away. The UK is so close you can swim there. The EU made it clear that a it makes no sense to have the same deal as a partner that is on the other side of the world than it does to have with a partner that is so close and have other interests and conflicts to discuss. All the deals I used as examples are better deals than the Canada and US deals they were all offered and rejected by the UK.
    - toyg 6y ago
      Everyone in the EU would have preferred a Norway-shaped deal. Switzerland was off the table (and is itself likely to go away over the next decade, for the reasons you mention), but Norway or Turkey were absolutely available, and it was signaled very clearly in 2016 and again all the way to 2019. The insistence on leaving the Custom Union on the UK side, however, precluded any scenario like that. The absence of a Swiss option was very well-known, even before the referendum, to anyone who paid any attention to actual EU policies. They see Switzerland as a mistake, ever since the country tried to walk back on its commitment to the four freedoms, and will absolutely not repeat that mistake ever again.

akmarinov 6y ago

As a European, I feel like this decision finally makes it so that the EU prioritizes its citizens' health and its economy in front of other third countries. Hopefully they follow up with Pfizer and Janssen until such time that at least 50% of the EU is vaccinated.

dgellow 6y ago
That has little to do with this. Here the fundamental disagreement is on contracts signed with AstraZeneca.

that_guy_iain 6y ago

Have you noticed how the UK has been acting politically? They're literally risking a no deal Brexit because they're basically not upholding the deal they got out of the kindness of the EU's heart. The only reason the UK had a deal was the EU went out of their way to make it happen. And the fact before the referendum for Brexit the EU gave the UK better terms than they already had when they already had the best deal in the EU and you're ashamed of this?` The whole vaccine thing seems to be the UK has their risk groups covered the EU hasn't. Seems one needs the vaccine more than the other in terms of saving lives. But honestly, it all really breaks down to the fact the UK has been pissing all over the EU for years. This is what happens when you have no politcal capital in a politcal arena.

dgellow 6y ago

What made you feel disturbed and ashamed? That may be my pan-European bias talking but I didn't notice bad behavior from the EU against the UK (or at least nothing crossing the line, there is of course harsh negotiations between both entities, but that's expected when you leave such a group). While UK officials and media repeatedly demonized the EU for the past ~5 years.

idownvoted 6y ago
> That may be my pan-European bias Or in other words: The excuse for being aggressivly nationalistic towards other nations, without the need to call it nationalism. This behaviour is particulary present across European high-educated middle- and upper-class circles and in general in Germany. In short: in areas of a society which have trouble celebrating their roots, because it grounds them. Next to their lower class neighbours or distant un-urban relatives. > While UK officials and media repeatedly demonized the EU for the past ~5 years. From following the three elections regarding Brexit (the Referendum, the EU parliamentary vote and the British Election in 2019): to claim that a majority of the British media, politicians and business elites sturred the anti-EU sentiment is utter, utter nonsense. The vast majority of domestic political parties favours the EU soley for the fact, that it gives them twice the amount of taxpayer payed positions they could shuffle their members into. And so did most of the British parties.
- dgellow 6y ago
  > This behaviour is particulary present across European high-educated middle- and upper-class circles and in general in Germany. In short: in areas of a society which have trouble celebrating their roots, because it grounds them. Next to their lower class neighbours or distant un-urban relatives. Wait until you learn that I'm Swiss, generally proud of my country and its history and people, do not have a European citizenship, have no form of high-education (my highest formal certificate is from an apprenticeship, I'm self-taught and built my software engineer career myself by learning directly on the job), and come from a single-parent family categorized as "lower class" by wealth statistics. Other than attacking an imaginary "elite" persona I'm supposed to embody, do you have some actual points to discuss regarding feeling "disturbed" and "ashamed" by the EU?