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> The anti-vax crowd is complete nonsense friendly reminder that this is factually false. vaccines can and do cause harm all the time. there is danger in getti

> The anti-vax crowd is complete nonsense friendly reminder that this is factually false. vaccines can and do cause harm all the time. there is danger in getting all medicine, and more danger in rushed medicines with potential unstudied long-term side effects. thats not to say that the history of vaccine use isnt overwhelmingly net positive, with the net-positive per cost metric being somehow even higher, but the fastest way to discredit yourself is to ignore the obviously valid and true points of your opponent, even if their overarching thesis is wrong.

the_af 6y ago
> friendly reminder that this is factually false The anti-vax crowd is complete nonsense. Regardless of any actual side-effects or concerns about the actual medicine and science of vaccines, the anti-vax crowd is still conspiracy theory nonsense. They don't go at it rationally, and no discourse is possible with them.
- tim333 6y ago
  I discourse a bit. I feel it's my duty to debunk a little. Usually it's not hard - a brief googling shows the meme of the day to be junk.
  - the_af 6y ago
    I believe it's not possible precisely because the underlying mentality is one of "they are lying to us". So you debunk the meme of the day and the next meme is waiting for you tomorrow, repeated by the same people. You gain nothing by debunking today's meme. No lesson will be learned because the problem is not one that can be solved by reasoning. No general conclusions are drawn. It's tiresome and futile, and ultimately the anti-vaxxer crowd just "wants to believe"... in conspiracies. I find it's also not always as easy as you put it to debunk crap. It requires time, effort, digging up numbers, comparing statistics, etc, whereas making shit up takes almost no effort.
    - tim333 6y ago
      Dunno. Here's one I prepared earlier https://www.reddit.com/r/Wuhan_Flu/comments/m979pb/28year_old_woman_braindead_after_second_pfizer/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Wuhan_Flu/comments/m979pb/28year_ol...
    - thu2111 6y ago
      In this case, the authorities actually are lying to people about vaccines, just in the opposite direction than the one than usually hypothesised (i.e. claiming it's dangerous and useless when in fact it's safe and effective). This fact - and it is undeniable, heavily documented fact by this point - unfortunately will make anti-vax theories far more prevalent and influential in the coming years. The way that EU governments and "experts" are willing to lie at every level about vaccine safety is by now completely established. Simply watching national governments disagreeing with the EMA, with the outcomes of US trials, suspending then resuming vaccines etc demonstrates this beyond doubt. The trustworthiness of expertise and the authorities is often the primary argument against anti-vaxxers and that argument is now on fire. New arguments need to be found, but what? How can trust be recovered after this?

the_af 6y ago

> friendly reminder that this is factually false The anti-vax crowd is complete nonsense. Regardless of any actual side-effects or concerns about the actual medicine and science of vaccines, the anti-vax crowd is still conspiracy theory nonsense. They don't go at it rationally, and no discourse is possible with them.

tim333 6y ago
I discourse a bit. I feel it's my duty to debunk a little. Usually it's not hard - a brief googling shows the meme of the day to be junk.
- the_af 6y ago
  I believe it's not possible precisely because the underlying mentality is one of "they are lying to us". So you debunk the meme of the day and the next meme is waiting for you tomorrow, repeated by the same people. You gain nothing by debunking today's meme. No lesson will be learned because the problem is not one that can be solved by reasoning. No general conclusions are drawn. It's tiresome and futile, and ultimately the anti-vaxxer crowd just "wants to believe"... in conspiracies. I find it's also not always as easy as you put it to debunk crap. It requires time, effort, digging up numbers, comparing statistics, etc, whereas making shit up takes almost no effort.
  - tim333 6y ago
    Dunno. Here's one I prepared earlier https://www.reddit.com/r/Wuhan_Flu/comments/m979pb/28year_old_woman_braindead_after_second_pfizer/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Wuhan_Flu/comments/m979pb/28year_ol...
  - thu2111 6y ago
    In this case, the authorities actually are lying to people about vaccines, just in the opposite direction than the one than usually hypothesised (i.e. claiming it's dangerous and useless when in fact it's safe and effective). This fact - and it is undeniable, heavily documented fact by this point - unfortunately will make anti-vax theories far more prevalent and influential in the coming years. The way that EU governments and "experts" are willing to lie at every level about vaccine safety is by now completely established. Simply watching national governments disagreeing with the EMA, with the outcomes of US trials, suspending then resuming vaccines etc demonstrates this beyond doubt. The trustworthiness of expertise and the authorities is often the primary argument against anti-vaxxers and that argument is now on fire. New arguments need to be found, but what? How can trust be recovered after this?