10 ms·

UK developer here. Can confirm what the above poster is saying, especially: >The problem is that salaries in the UK are not attractive as you quickly get on th

by hd4 6y ago

UK developer here. Can confirm what the above poster is saying, especially: >The problem is that salaries in the UK are not attractive as you quickly get on the higher tax bracket. This was made worse when changes to IR35 passed and now if someone works on a b2b basis is likely going to be caught by new rules and it means no more business expenses, having to pay employer's NI, apprenticeship levy etc. and no employment rights. I was directly affected by this and I'm looking to leave as soon as possible.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
yrgulation 6y ago
Leave where? In the EU salaries are even lower. As a contractor in the UK, even with IR35, you can earn after tax well above 7kGBP a month. I earn, without bragging, 10k GBP a month, after tax - although I am not inside IR35. Others tell me they are simply increasing their daily rate to cover for IR35. And no to mention benefits as a software engineer: bonuses, shares, etc if you are permanents, thing rarely met in continental Europe.
- Nursie 6y ago
  > Leave where? US, Canada, Australia. All have higher salaries for software people, though not all as good as London finance contracting has been. I earn around the same level you do and am leaving for Australia sometime in the next few months. I don't expect to make anything close to my current contracting income, though I do plan to start a consulting company over there at some point.
  - yrgulation 6y ago
    "Canada, Australia. All have higher salaries for software people," - I was under the same false impression that either of the two countries have better pay. Turned out to be quite false, at least Canada has significantly lower pay, and far behind tech. Testament to this is the fact that I got a work visa for CA and turned it down once I did my due diligence. Brexit "refugees" that went to Canada share the same impression. However, both CA and AU have other benefits. While pay is lower, the standard of living in my view is much higher and are much safer. For those two reason I think they might be a good choice, but not pay. Correct me if I am wrong, as I am still considering a decent alternative to the UK - preferably somewhere safer and with better quality services.
    - Nursie 6y ago
      I've worked in Australia, and compared to the pay of most salaried programmers in the UK, the money on offer was much better. Hell, doing the same damn job for a big corporate over there as I had done in London (same team and everything) netted me a 60% payrise. Comparing to London contractor money, sure it'll be less and I'm preparing for that, but compared to most salaried work. Look at the averages - Average software engineering salary in Canada $102,866. That average in the UK? £31K. Just over half the Canadian figure. (I'd allow that the average figure in the UK does not paint an accurate picture because a lot of the higher skilled people opt out of employment to go it alone, like ourselves) I very much agree on the standard of living aspect, having had direct experience of life in Australia. There's just more space, and more respect for public facilities etc.
      - yrgulation 6y ago
        The issue is I don't know how these average salaries are calculated. I can confidently say that I know no one at a Senior level working on less than 60kGBP a year, and I don't imagine the bulk of engineers are junior or mid level. I do know however that people who earned a lot once they moved to either CA or AU, they earned less - but were happy given the benefits in previous comment. > I've worked in Australia, and compared to the pay of most salaried programmers in the UK, the money on offer was much better. Hell, doing the same damn job for a big corporate over there as I had done in London (same team and everything) netted me a 60% payrise. New data points are always welcome - I might have to read more on the topic as I am clearly missing some data in regards to AU (my peers told me otherwise, maybe they do something wrong).
        Nursie 6y ago
        > I know no one at a Senior level working on less than 60kGBP a year, I don't think I know anyone in our sector that's currently salaried so I can't say I have many personal datapoints there. However I do think that outside of London the UK pays salaried software folks pretty badly. > I do know however that people who earned a lot... Maybe there's less variance and less room at the top end in CA and AU? That could explain our conflicting views. My last experience over there was not as a "senior", though I had a few years experience I wasn't at the top of my game compared to today.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  10k£/month is unfortunately not that high considering London's cost of living and property prices, and when accounting for downtime in between contracts it's not that great. > Others tell me they are simply increasing their daily rate to cover for IR35 "Inside IR35" contracts are bad for a variety of reasons, such as the extra control the client has over you as well as the requirement to use an umbrella company (technically it's not required - you can very well deduct & pay the relevant taxes on your side, but given the liability shift, clients are unlikely to agree).
  - varispeed 6y ago
    You don't need to use an umbrella to work inside IR35 (but umbrellas are trying to spook companies as they have a horse in that race) and you retain more autonomy, but you need to have the so called Fee Payer that will deduct all the taxes before money lands in your company account. Some umbrellas also offer the fee payer service.
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    £10K a month after tax if average is more than enough even for London a good 2 bed flat in a very good area is around £2500 a month. It’s not US salaries but £120K after tax a year would put on on the property ladder even in central London rather quickly.
- hd4 6y ago
  The US, most likely. >although I am not inside IR35 That's what I meant though, this is going to end soon. There will be no "outside IR35". One of the more foolish decisions of the UK state recently (and they're not lacking in that department).
  - Nursie 6y ago
    > There will be no "outside IR35". If the end client decides it is so (and assumes liability), you can still be outside. If the end client is a "small business" then there is no change*. The best thing I can think of for those who want to continue to operate as an independent business is to actually become more business-like. Start a consultancy with a couple of like-minded individuals, based on your skills. Let clients and agents know you are available to deliver work on a fixed-cost basis, not join a project on a day rate. But I agree, the whole thing is a nasty mess, and it's going to screw a lot of people. (*though I imagine HMRC will be launching many more investigations into such small businesses. This is the bit that gets me, they leave a grey area in which you can get screwed).
    - varispeed 6y ago
      There is no incentive to have contractor work on an outside basis because that gets too complex and has no tangible advantages for the client. The status determination process is also a fiction, because the client can specify relationship to meet the in-scope criteria in the contract and there is no room for appeal. Essentially a new class of employees without rights has been created.
      - Nursie 6y ago
        There is a financial incentive, if the client company is certain that the work they want done is outside, for instance if they are willing to completely cede control, and pay a lump sum for well defined work. Closer to real freelancing/consultancy than a lot of current 'contracting' positions. But yes I agree, that is what's happened. Umbrellas must be rubbing their hands with glee.
- varispeed 6y ago
  > are simply increasing their daily rate to cover for IR35 You have to increase the rate by well over 30% and that puts you into territory of what agencies charge. Company might as well drop you and go with an agency then as they don't want to deal with IR35 as there is too many misconceptions and fines are heavy for getting it wrong.

by hd4 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

yrgulation 6y ago

Leave where? In the EU salaries are even lower. As a contractor in the UK, even with IR35, you can earn after tax well above 7kGBP a month. I earn, without bragging, 10k GBP a month, after tax - although I am not inside IR35. Others tell me they are simply increasing their daily rate to cover for IR35. And no to mention benefits as a software engineer: bonuses, shares, etc if you are permanents, thing rarely met in continental Europe.

Nursie 6y ago
> Leave where? US, Canada, Australia. All have higher salaries for software people, though not all as good as London finance contracting has been. I earn around the same level you do and am leaving for Australia sometime in the next few months. I don't expect to make anything close to my current contracting income, though I do plan to start a consulting company over there at some point.
- yrgulation 6y ago
  "Canada, Australia. All have higher salaries for software people," - I was under the same false impression that either of the two countries have better pay. Turned out to be quite false, at least Canada has significantly lower pay, and far behind tech. Testament to this is the fact that I got a work visa for CA and turned it down once I did my due diligence. Brexit "refugees" that went to Canada share the same impression. However, both CA and AU have other benefits. While pay is lower, the standard of living in my view is much higher and are much safer. For those two reason I think they might be a good choice, but not pay. Correct me if I am wrong, as I am still considering a decent alternative to the UK - preferably somewhere safer and with better quality services.
  - Nursie 6y ago
    I've worked in Australia, and compared to the pay of most salaried programmers in the UK, the money on offer was much better. Hell, doing the same damn job for a big corporate over there as I had done in London (same team and everything) netted me a 60% payrise. Comparing to London contractor money, sure it'll be less and I'm preparing for that, but compared to most salaried work. Look at the averages - Average software engineering salary in Canada $102,866. That average in the UK? £31K. Just over half the Canadian figure. (I'd allow that the average figure in the UK does not paint an accurate picture because a lot of the higher skilled people opt out of employment to go it alone, like ourselves) I very much agree on the standard of living aspect, having had direct experience of life in Australia. There's just more space, and more respect for public facilities etc.
    - yrgulation 6y ago
      The issue is I don't know how these average salaries are calculated. I can confidently say that I know no one at a Senior level working on less than 60kGBP a year, and I don't imagine the bulk of engineers are junior or mid level. I do know however that people who earned a lot once they moved to either CA or AU, they earned less - but were happy given the benefits in previous comment. > I've worked in Australia, and compared to the pay of most salaried programmers in the UK, the money on offer was much better. Hell, doing the same damn job for a big corporate over there as I had done in London (same team and everything) netted me a 60% payrise. New data points are always welcome - I might have to read more on the topic as I am clearly missing some data in regards to AU (my peers told me otherwise, maybe they do something wrong).
      - Nursie 6y ago
        > I know no one at a Senior level working on less than 60kGBP a year, I don't think I know anyone in our sector that's currently salaried so I can't say I have many personal datapoints there. However I do think that outside of London the UK pays salaried software folks pretty badly. > I do know however that people who earned a lot... Maybe there's less variance and less room at the top end in CA and AU? That could explain our conflicting views. My last experience over there was not as a "senior", though I had a few years experience I wasn't at the top of my game compared to today.
Nextgrid 6y ago
10k£/month is unfortunately not that high considering London's cost of living and property prices, and when accounting for downtime in between contracts it's not that great. > Others tell me they are simply increasing their daily rate to cover for IR35 "Inside IR35" contracts are bad for a variety of reasons, such as the extra control the client has over you as well as the requirement to use an umbrella company (technically it's not required - you can very well deduct & pay the relevant taxes on your side, but given the liability shift, clients are unlikely to agree).
- varispeed 6y ago
  You don't need to use an umbrella to work inside IR35 (but umbrellas are trying to spook companies as they have a horse in that race) and you retain more autonomy, but you need to have the so called Fee Payer that will deduct all the taxes before money lands in your company account. Some umbrellas also offer the fee payer service.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  £10K a month after tax if average is more than enough even for London a good 2 bed flat in a very good area is around £2500 a month. It’s not US salaries but £120K after tax a year would put on on the property ladder even in central London rather quickly.
hd4 6y ago
The US, most likely. >although I am not inside IR35 That's what I meant though, this is going to end soon. There will be no "outside IR35". One of the more foolish decisions of the UK state recently (and they're not lacking in that department).
- Nursie 6y ago
  > There will be no "outside IR35". If the end client decides it is so (and assumes liability), you can still be outside. If the end client is a "small business" then there is no change*. The best thing I can think of for those who want to continue to operate as an independent business is to actually become more business-like. Start a consultancy with a couple of like-minded individuals, based on your skills. Let clients and agents know you are available to deliver work on a fixed-cost basis, not join a project on a day rate. But I agree, the whole thing is a nasty mess, and it's going to screw a lot of people. (*though I imagine HMRC will be launching many more investigations into such small businesses. This is the bit that gets me, they leave a grey area in which you can get screwed).
  - varispeed 6y ago
    There is no incentive to have contractor work on an outside basis because that gets too complex and has no tangible advantages for the client. The status determination process is also a fiction, because the client can specify relationship to meet the in-scope criteria in the contract and there is no room for appeal. Essentially a new class of employees without rights has been created.
    - Nursie 6y ago
      There is a financial incentive, if the client company is certain that the work they want done is outside, for instance if they are willing to completely cede control, and pay a lump sum for well defined work. Closer to real freelancing/consultancy than a lot of current 'contracting' positions. But yes I agree, that is what's happened. Umbrellas must be rubbing their hands with glee.
varispeed 6y ago
> are simply increasing their daily rate to cover for IR35 You have to increase the rate by well over 30% and that puts you into territory of what agencies charge. Company might as well drop you and go with an agency then as they don't want to deal with IR35 as there is too many misconceptions and fines are heavy for getting it wrong.