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"less pay" isn't something you get to define all on your own, it is a 2-way street. Programmers are already among the highest paid professions anywhere, so it'

"less pay" isn't something you get to define all on your own, it is a 2-way street. Programmers are already among the highest paid professions anywhere, so it's laughable that they complain about "less pay". Who's next? hedge fund managers and investment bankers complaining about low bonuses?

bloqs 6y ago
This is not entirely true in the UK. The relative pay ratio for skill difficulty to pay is very low. Programmers get paid like plumbers.
- cameronh90 6y ago
  https://uk.jobted.com/salary https://uk.jobted.com/salary According to here, software engineers are paid roughly the same as other types of engineer, and a lot more than plumbers. There are some very low paid development related job titles. For example, "Web Developer" salaries are always awfully low - but that's a job title you only ever really see at tech-phobic companies or design agencies. Speaking as someone who does a fair amount of hiring in London, a decent software engineer commands a high salary - around the six figure mark. I don't mean FAANG "can invert a binary tree on a whiteboard" level, just "knows what a mutex is". There really aren't many other careers in this country that you can be paid six figures in a non-management job without a degree.
  - andyjohnson0 6y ago
    For those of us who don't live or work in London, the salary situation is very different. I've been a developer for 30+ years and I have never met anyone who earns that kind of money for developing software.
    - cameronh90 6y ago
      You can get £60-90k in places like Manchester and Edinburgh, which does afford a pretty nice lifestyle given that the average salary in those places is less than half that. The best way to get a high salary in the UK seems to be to either work in London, work remotely for a London based office, or work in London then transfer to another part of the UK. I'm not a London native, but there's a phrase people in my home town use, "doing your London time" - meaning working in London for a few years then moving back home. Reason being that once you've worked in London, your salary is permanently much higher once you move back than it would otherwise have been.
  - Nextgrid 6y ago
    Very low six figures I assume? Which is even less of an impact when you account for the higher tax rate bands. Six figure in the UK is very different from six figures in other countries.
    - cameronh90 6y ago
      I plugged £120k ($166,400) into a UK and California tax calculator. UK after tax came to £74,244 ($102,885), California came to $108,070. I don't know how accurate those numbers are, but they don't seem all that different to me. And compared to the rest of Europe, UK tax is on the low side. Of course I don't particularly _enjoy _paying high taxes, but I feel like living in London, earning within the ballpark of that amount, my life is pretty good.
      - Nextgrid 6y ago
        The thing with California (and US in general) is that 120k is the lower end of tech salaries, where as in the UK it's the top-end. So while tax rates might be similar, US salaries significantly offset it.
        cameronh90 6y ago
        Glassdoor says that the average in USA is $77k and high is $107k. For California, the numbers are $92k and $134k respectively. Indeed says $136k is average for California. £120k/$166k is clearly on the upper end by their measures. FAANGs, start-ups, unicorns, fintech etc. are much higher, but the same is true in the UK. I know mid tier software engineers working in FB/Google in London clearing over £300k in total comp. I work in a fintech start-up and my TC is close to £200k. But sure. London pure tech salaries are not the quite as high as the global tech hub. Fintech salaries are competitive with NYC though (but slightly worse after tax).
  - cutler 6y ago
    The PHP community is partly responsible for this where rates are consistently 20% below the going rate.
  - Nursie 6y ago
    > hiring in London Outside of London companies are still looking for experienced software people under the £40k mark, and then wondering why they have staff retention issues, or can't attract top talent. This is showing signs of slow change - Starling bank have a plan to open offices in other cities, starting with Southampton, and pay close-to-London money. JPMC have had that strategy in Dorset for quite a while too.
    - cutler 6y ago
      Exactly, and outside London PHP is still rampant where rates are around 30k.
- phenkdo 6y ago
  I am in the US and we hear such statements even from SV engineers who make wow salaries. So "enough" is in the eyes of the beholder.

bloqs 6y ago

This is not entirely true in the UK. The relative pay ratio for skill difficulty to pay is very low. Programmers get paid like plumbers.

cameronh90 6y ago
https://uk.jobted.com/salary https://uk.jobted.com/salary According to here, software engineers are paid roughly the same as other types of engineer, and a lot more than plumbers. There are some very low paid development related job titles. For example, "Web Developer" salaries are always awfully low - but that's a job title you only ever really see at tech-phobic companies or design agencies. Speaking as someone who does a fair amount of hiring in London, a decent software engineer commands a high salary - around the six figure mark. I don't mean FAANG "can invert a binary tree on a whiteboard" level, just "knows what a mutex is". There really aren't many other careers in this country that you can be paid six figures in a non-management job without a degree.
- andyjohnson0 6y ago
  For those of us who don't live or work in London, the salary situation is very different. I've been a developer for 30+ years and I have never met anyone who earns that kind of money for developing software.
  - cameronh90 6y ago
    You can get £60-90k in places like Manchester and Edinburgh, which does afford a pretty nice lifestyle given that the average salary in those places is less than half that. The best way to get a high salary in the UK seems to be to either work in London, work remotely for a London based office, or work in London then transfer to another part of the UK. I'm not a London native, but there's a phrase people in my home town use, "doing your London time" - meaning working in London for a few years then moving back home. Reason being that once you've worked in London, your salary is permanently much higher once you move back than it would otherwise have been.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  Very low six figures I assume? Which is even less of an impact when you account for the higher tax rate bands. Six figure in the UK is very different from six figures in other countries.
  - cameronh90 6y ago
    I plugged £120k ($166,400) into a UK and California tax calculator. UK after tax came to £74,244 ($102,885), California came to $108,070. I don't know how accurate those numbers are, but they don't seem all that different to me. And compared to the rest of Europe, UK tax is on the low side. Of course I don't particularly _enjoy _paying high taxes, but I feel like living in London, earning within the ballpark of that amount, my life is pretty good.
    - Nextgrid 6y ago
      The thing with California (and US in general) is that 120k is the lower end of tech salaries, where as in the UK it's the top-end. So while tax rates might be similar, US salaries significantly offset it.
      - cameronh90 6y ago
        Glassdoor says that the average in USA is $77k and high is $107k. For California, the numbers are $92k and $134k respectively. Indeed says $136k is average for California. £120k/$166k is clearly on the upper end by their measures. FAANGs, start-ups, unicorns, fintech etc. are much higher, but the same is true in the UK. I know mid tier software engineers working in FB/Google in London clearing over £300k in total comp. I work in a fintech start-up and my TC is close to £200k. But sure. London pure tech salaries are not the quite as high as the global tech hub. Fintech salaries are competitive with NYC though (but slightly worse after tax).
- cutler 6y ago
  The PHP community is partly responsible for this where rates are consistently 20% below the going rate.
- Nursie 6y ago
  > hiring in London Outside of London companies are still looking for experienced software people under the £40k mark, and then wondering why they have staff retention issues, or can't attract top talent. This is showing signs of slow change - Starling bank have a plan to open offices in other cities, starting with Southampton, and pay close-to-London money. JPMC have had that strategy in Dorset for quite a while too.
  - cutler 6y ago
    Exactly, and outside London PHP is still rampant where rates are around 30k.
phenkdo 6y ago
I am in the US and we hear such statements even from SV engineers who make wow salaries. So "enough" is in the eyes of the beholder.