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> In Italy or Germany an engineer is a respected and protected profession. So much so, that in fact a software developer is definitely not seen as an engineer

> In Italy or Germany an engineer is a respected and protected profession. So much so, that in fact a software developer is definitely not seen as an engineer in Germany, which is a protected word you can only call yourself, when you actually have an engineering degree (similar to lawyer or doctor). It also does not mean, that you can earn more over here. I am hoping that this will change due to the car manufacturers investing massively in vehicle software.

qsort 6y ago
It's exactly the same in Italy. I self-describe as a "software engineer" in English-speaking contexts because the word "engineer" in English doesn't have the same connotation, but I'm very careful never to use the Italian or German equivalents. It's considered a very serious lie that could (unlikely, but potentially) even get you in legal trouble.
- gpderetta 6y ago
  Yes. In Italy you can actually get an Engineering degree in CS, but you still need to take an habilitation exam to call yourself an Engineer (and in fact even pure CS graduates can take the exam). Most don't bother though as it is not really needing for anything other than calling yourself an actual Ingegnere.
- lifeisstillgood 6y ago
  This rather begs the question - can we ever migrate coding to be come a profession like 'real' engineering? I think its the strongest argument for 'software literacy' I can come up with - no we cannot.
  - qsort 6y ago
    It kind of depends on what you mean. Leaving aside regulatory frameworks and restrictions on "engineering proper", I believe the underlying question is "can we expect the average 100 IQ person to be able to write code?". I believe the answer could hypothetically be yes, but you have to attach a lot of strings to that. I don't think it's reasonable to expect anybody to come out of high school with a firm understanding of, say, memory management or OOP principles or computational complexity, but I do believe a bit of "algorithmic thinking", for lack of a better word, could be something valuable to integrate in the average curriculum. It's not less esoteric than Latin or Greek.
  - goatinaboat 6y ago
    can we ever migrate coding to be come a profession like 'real' engineering? Of course we can, but noone is willing to pay for it. Then they pay for it on other ways, and act like they're surprised when once again hackers waltz in, or there's an outage that costs the business a fortune, or yet another project fails to deliver because of corners cut early on.

qsort 6y ago

It's exactly the same in Italy. I self-describe as a "software engineer" in English-speaking contexts because the word "engineer" in English doesn't have the same connotation, but I'm very careful never to use the Italian or German equivalents. It's considered a very serious lie that could (unlikely, but potentially) even get you in legal trouble.

gpderetta 6y ago
Yes. In Italy you can actually get an Engineering degree in CS, but you still need to take an habilitation exam to call yourself an Engineer (and in fact even pure CS graduates can take the exam). Most don't bother though as it is not really needing for anything other than calling yourself an actual Ingegnere.
lifeisstillgood 6y ago
This rather begs the question - can we ever migrate coding to be come a profession like 'real' engineering? I think its the strongest argument for 'software literacy' I can come up with - no we cannot.
- qsort 6y ago
  It kind of depends on what you mean. Leaving aside regulatory frameworks and restrictions on "engineering proper", I believe the underlying question is "can we expect the average 100 IQ person to be able to write code?". I believe the answer could hypothetically be yes, but you have to attach a lot of strings to that. I don't think it's reasonable to expect anybody to come out of high school with a firm understanding of, say, memory management or OOP principles or computational complexity, but I do believe a bit of "algorithmic thinking", for lack of a better word, could be something valuable to integrate in the average curriculum. It's not less esoteric than Latin or Greek.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  can we ever migrate coding to be come a profession like 'real' engineering? Of course we can, but noone is willing to pay for it. Then they pay for it on other ways, and act like they're surprised when once again hackers waltz in, or there's an outage that costs the business a fortune, or yet another project fails to deliver because of corners cut early on.