5 ms·

As a Dane myself, I completely agree. And we should have resumed once EMA affirmed the vaccine being safe and efficient. But there is a feeling here that we ha

As a Dane myself, I completely agree. And we should have resumed once EMA affirmed the vaccine being safe and efficient. But there is a feeling here that we have thing under control, and in a weird way we do.. we had about 6 covid deaths total, last week.

jopsen 6y ago
We do for now, but we all know it can blow up any second.
kossTKR 6y ago
This makes zero sense to me from a stats point of view. Denmark has only had 11 deaths in total in the age bracket [0-60], without known underlying conditions. Most of them close to sixty and overweight. 4 [0-60] bracket women have already died in Norway, and 2 in Denmark with one 30 year old in intensive care. All healthy relatively young health workers, a group of people that have simply not died from Covid. Norway has zero deaths below 60 without underlying conditions, and 4 deaths from the vaccine. So it's only the vaccine killing healthy people. Same in Denmark. You won't find a single dead healthy 50 yr woman among the dead. All the data is publically available. It's almost incomprehensible to me that people don't understand that Covid almost exlusively kills 80+ people, or with many comorbidities. Close to zero healthy people below 60 have died from Covid in the west. Sacrificing 4 healthy people after only 120K vaccinations in NO is crazy. Or 2 after 140K in Denmark with one in critical. I wouldn't take the AZ vaccine. There is about a in 1 / 25000 of sudden death for a healthy|<60 person compared to zero with Covid at the moment. 1 / 25000 chance of dying is crazy high for a 30 year old, and here we haven't even counted non fatal haemorrhages which is higher.
- dsincl12 6y ago
  Sometimes I wondered if I was completely alone in this madness. Nice to see I'm not alone. Thank you!
- elbear 6y ago
  Has causality been established between vaccines and the 4 deaths?
  - chithanh 6y ago
    I don't know about Norway, but for Germany there have been preliminary results published, which indicate that the cerebral venous sinus thrombosis cases were indeed caused by immune reaction. Article (in German): https://www.spektrum.de/news/astrazeneca-impfstoff-immunreaktion-loest-thrombosen-im-hirn-aus/1849132 https://www.spektrum.de/news/astrazeneca-impfstoff-immunreak...
  - the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
    Not sure about Norway but the case in Austria that started all that was an immune reaction to the vaccine: https://noe.orf.at/stories/3095633/ https://noe.orf.at/stories/3095633/
  - timoth 6y ago
    This is a few days old now so doesn't include the latest Norwegian cases, but that seemed to be the thinking (though the article feels a bit of a mix between certain and equivocal at different points). https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/KyGv2G/professor-says-cause-of-rare-bloodclots-in-people-vaccinated-with-astrazeneca-has-been-found https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/KyGv2G/professor-says-...
  - marvin 6y ago
    Not in the published, peer reviewed sense. But the group of doctors at Rikshospitalet, that treated some of these patients, is confident that the vaccine is the only plausible explanation. https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/KyGv2G/professor-says-cause-of-rare-bloodclots-in-people-vaccinated-with-astrazeneca-has-been-found https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/KyGv2G/professor-says-... Quoting from the somewhat poorly translated VG article: >"We have the reason [for the blood clots]. And there is no other thing than the vaccine which can explain that we have this immune response, says Holme." >"[...] we have no other history with these patients that could create such a severe immune response. I am confident that these antibodies is the reason, and I see no other reasons than it being the vaccine that triggers it" Original, in Norwegian: https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/QmwR1V/professor-om-mistenkte-vaksinebivirkninger-aarsaken-er-funnet https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/QmwR1V/professor-om-mi...
- NamTaf 6y ago
  Three points: 1: 7.86% of all deaths in the UK were under 60 [1]. Unfortunately, I don't see any data on comorbidities easily available, but I'd expect similar rates of them in the UK vs NO, DK, etc. and so I'd expect similar rates of death in the agre groups. Note that I don't doubt your general point that covid is vastly more deadly to the elderly, but I do not believe 1 in 13 supports your statement that "close to zero healthy people below 60 have died from Covid in the west". 2: Considering deaths alone is a woefully inadequate measure of the impact of covid on people. There's countless reports of ongoing issues [2] after 'recovery', and we have absolutely no idea what the long-term implications are. By letting it pass through populations with a low mortality rate, you're gambling against possible long-term health implications that will impact whole populations on an ongoing basis. 3: I am not sure how your 1 in 25,000 rate of sudden death matches with the fact that England has vaccinated 6,169,566 people under 55 [3] as of 14/03. Your rate would imply we'd have seen close to 250 sudden deaths out of England alone. A cursory search doesn't find me any numbers, so please point me towards any you may have, but I would be astounded if news media weren't reporting on that sort of rate of deaths. I'm not going to pass judgement either way on the equations of how many vaccine-related deaths are comparable to 'natural' covid deaths or long-term illnesses, however I felt those three points were worth making, particualrly given they affect fundamental assumptions you make, or data you cite. [1]: https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-%20work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/ https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-%20work-ar... - "COVID 19 total announced deaths 21 March 2021" spreadsheet [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_COVID https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_COVID [3]: https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-vaccinations/ https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas... - "COVID-19 weekly announced vaccinations 18 March 2021" PDF
  - kossTKR 6y ago
    All of you points are reasonable, but less so considering we can wait a few weeks and eliminate the risk with another vaccine like Pfizer/Biontech. As the other posters of sources show, this is a very rare kind blod failure that only hits 1/3000000 people, and often leads to death. Not just a little blod clots. German research says 7 times the amount of blod clots in AZ vaccinated already against background: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-picture-why-vaccine-safety-experts-put-brakes-astrazeneca-s-covid-19?fbclid=IwAR2TlWrt3pBsflwNdq_zEecXJbEx3iqhu95D9-yT2TYDnoP4HCAaMI87muk https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-pi.... https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2021-03-19-blodpropper-er-almindelige-men-det-er-ikke-dem-der-bekymrer-eksperterne https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https... My line of thinking at the moment is: 1) Seems right. It's about 5% in DK/NO. [1] Comorbidities is about 90% in DK for deaths, this is pretty much the pattern everywhere. In other words only about 10% percent die without "known" comorbidities - but very importantly obesity is excluded here often - it's relatively rare to find in-shape healthy "younger" people dying - that's why it becomes sensational. I only have comorbidity sources in danish (unstrained system), but to compare to the UK this is the pattern seen in "strained" public health system - from after the NY first wave meltdown[2]. Notice how few without comorbidities. Only 17 in the age group 18-44, in 15000 deaths. Today the NYC numbers have doubled so lets extrapolate and say 34 people have died in the age group 18-44. If 3/4 of those where obese which is pretty likely[3], then we end up with about 9 deaths out of 50000 in the 18-44 bracket in NYC, a heavily strained city with 8.5 million inhabitants. Not zero, but seriously bordering on it noise and scale wise. 2) Considering above ratios 4 deaths per 150.000 in the 0-60 bracket, and problems with non fatal haemorrhages that often leaves people completely handicapped still seems worse in a "semi experimental" vaccine without large scale testing yet. Again 4 healthy people have already died, two in their thirties in Norway. That just doesn't happen statistically with DIC haemorrhages. 3) The main theory is bad batches, or bad laboratories. The UK makes its AZ vaccines in completely different labs than the rest of Europe. Could also be genes, diet, local medications etc. No matter what - the "lets just divide the NO/DK/DE" high death rates into the succesfull UK vaccinations is extremely dishonest. Right now the numbers look bad in both Norway, Denmark and Germany this is why there is already several specialists that are alarmed independently in NO/DE (see first sciencemag article). [1]https://www.ined.fr/fichier/rte/166/Page%20Data/Norway/NorwegianDocumentationCovid19-From-12-03-2021_To-18-03-2021.zip https://www.ined.fr/fichier/rte/166/Page%20Data/Norway/Norwe... [2]https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-daily-data-summary-deaths-05132020-1.pdf https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-d... [3]https://www.worldobesityday.org/assets/downloads/COVID-19-and-Obesity-The-2021-Atlas.pdf https://www.worldobesityday.org/assets/downloads/COVID-19-an... -- disclaimer, i am not against vaccines, and would gladly take the Pfizer vaccine at the moment at least. Also seems to have way less side effects after vaccination like fever/shaking/headache/vomiting. Everyone i know who's taken the AZ vaccine has been very sick for a few days (nurses/doctors), no side effects from the pfizer vaccine - anecdotally i know.

jopsen 6y ago

We do for now, but we all know it can blow up any second.

kossTKR 6y ago

This makes zero sense to me from a stats point of view. Denmark has only had 11 deaths in total in the age bracket [0-60], without known underlying conditions. Most of them close to sixty and overweight. 4 [0-60] bracket women have already died in Norway, and 2 in Denmark with one 30 year old in intensive care. All healthy relatively young health workers, a group of people that have simply not died from Covid. Norway has zero deaths below 60 without underlying conditions, and 4 deaths from the vaccine. So it's only the vaccine killing healthy people. Same in Denmark. You won't find a single dead healthy 50 yr woman among the dead. All the data is publically available. It's almost incomprehensible to me that people don't understand that Covid almost exlusively kills 80+ people, or with many comorbidities. Close to zero healthy people below 60 have died from Covid in the west. Sacrificing 4 healthy people after only 120K vaccinations in NO is crazy. Or 2 after 140K in Denmark with one in critical. I wouldn't take the AZ vaccine. There is about a in 1 / 25000 of sudden death for a healthy|<60 person compared to zero with Covid at the moment. 1 / 25000 chance of dying is crazy high for a 30 year old, and here we haven't even counted non fatal haemorrhages which is higher.

dsincl12 6y ago
Sometimes I wondered if I was completely alone in this madness. Nice to see I'm not alone. Thank you!
elbear 6y ago
Has causality been established between vaccines and the 4 deaths?
- chithanh 6y ago
  I don't know about Norway, but for Germany there have been preliminary results published, which indicate that the cerebral venous sinus thrombosis cases were indeed caused by immune reaction. Article (in German): https://www.spektrum.de/news/astrazeneca-impfstoff-immunreaktion-loest-thrombosen-im-hirn-aus/1849132 https://www.spektrum.de/news/astrazeneca-impfstoff-immunreak...
- the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
  Not sure about Norway but the case in Austria that started all that was an immune reaction to the vaccine: https://noe.orf.at/stories/3095633/ https://noe.orf.at/stories/3095633/
- timoth 6y ago
  This is a few days old now so doesn't include the latest Norwegian cases, but that seemed to be the thinking (though the article feels a bit of a mix between certain and equivocal at different points). https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/KyGv2G/professor-says-cause-of-rare-bloodclots-in-people-vaccinated-with-astrazeneca-has-been-found https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/KyGv2G/professor-says-...
- marvin 6y ago
  Not in the published, peer reviewed sense. But the group of doctors at Rikshospitalet, that treated some of these patients, is confident that the vaccine is the only plausible explanation. https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/KyGv2G/professor-says-cause-of-rare-bloodclots-in-people-vaccinated-with-astrazeneca-has-been-found https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/KyGv2G/professor-says-... Quoting from the somewhat poorly translated VG article: >"We have the reason [for the blood clots]. And there is no other thing than the vaccine which can explain that we have this immune response, says Holme." >"[...] we have no other history with these patients that could create such a severe immune response. I am confident that these antibodies is the reason, and I see no other reasons than it being the vaccine that triggers it" Original, in Norwegian: https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/QmwR1V/professor-om-mistenkte-vaksinebivirkninger-aarsaken-er-funnet https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/QmwR1V/professor-om-mi...
NamTaf 6y ago
Three points: 1: 7.86% of all deaths in the UK were under 60 [1]. Unfortunately, I don't see any data on comorbidities easily available, but I'd expect similar rates of them in the UK vs NO, DK, etc. and so I'd expect similar rates of death in the agre groups. Note that I don't doubt your general point that covid is vastly more deadly to the elderly, but I do not believe 1 in 13 supports your statement that "close to zero healthy people below 60 have died from Covid in the west". 2: Considering deaths alone is a woefully inadequate measure of the impact of covid on people. There's countless reports of ongoing issues [2] after 'recovery', and we have absolutely no idea what the long-term implications are. By letting it pass through populations with a low mortality rate, you're gambling against possible long-term health implications that will impact whole populations on an ongoing basis. 3: I am not sure how your 1 in 25,000 rate of sudden death matches with the fact that England has vaccinated 6,169,566 people under 55 [3] as of 14/03. Your rate would imply we'd have seen close to 250 sudden deaths out of England alone. A cursory search doesn't find me any numbers, so please point me towards any you may have, but I would be astounded if news media weren't reporting on that sort of rate of deaths. I'm not going to pass judgement either way on the equations of how many vaccine-related deaths are comparable to 'natural' covid deaths or long-term illnesses, however I felt those three points were worth making, particualrly given they affect fundamental assumptions you make, or data you cite. [1]: https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-%20work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/ https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-%20work-ar... - "COVID 19 total announced deaths 21 March 2021" spreadsheet [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_COVID https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_COVID [3]: https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-vaccinations/ https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas... - "COVID-19 weekly announced vaccinations 18 March 2021" PDF
- kossTKR 6y ago
  All of you points are reasonable, but less so considering we can wait a few weeks and eliminate the risk with another vaccine like Pfizer/Biontech. As the other posters of sources show, this is a very rare kind blod failure that only hits 1/3000000 people, and often leads to death. Not just a little blod clots. German research says 7 times the amount of blod clots in AZ vaccinated already against background: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-picture-why-vaccine-safety-experts-put-brakes-astrazeneca-s-covid-19?fbclid=IwAR2TlWrt3pBsflwNdq_zEecXJbEx3iqhu95D9-yT2TYDnoP4HCAaMI87muk https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-pi.... https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2021-03-19-blodpropper-er-almindelige-men-det-er-ikke-dem-der-bekymrer-eksperterne https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https... My line of thinking at the moment is: 1) Seems right. It's about 5% in DK/NO. [1] Comorbidities is about 90% in DK for deaths, this is pretty much the pattern everywhere. In other words only about 10% percent die without "known" comorbidities - but very importantly obesity is excluded here often - it's relatively rare to find in-shape healthy "younger" people dying - that's why it becomes sensational. I only have comorbidity sources in danish (unstrained system), but to compare to the UK this is the pattern seen in "strained" public health system - from after the NY first wave meltdown[2]. Notice how few without comorbidities. Only 17 in the age group 18-44, in 15000 deaths. Today the NYC numbers have doubled so lets extrapolate and say 34 people have died in the age group 18-44. If 3/4 of those where obese which is pretty likely[3], then we end up with about 9 deaths out of 50000 in the 18-44 bracket in NYC, a heavily strained city with 8.5 million inhabitants. Not zero, but seriously bordering on it noise and scale wise. 2) Considering above ratios 4 deaths per 150.000 in the 0-60 bracket, and problems with non fatal haemorrhages that often leaves people completely handicapped still seems worse in a "semi experimental" vaccine without large scale testing yet. Again 4 healthy people have already died, two in their thirties in Norway. That just doesn't happen statistically with DIC haemorrhages. 3) The main theory is bad batches, or bad laboratories. The UK makes its AZ vaccines in completely different labs than the rest of Europe. Could also be genes, diet, local medications etc. No matter what - the "lets just divide the NO/DK/DE" high death rates into the succesfull UK vaccinations is extremely dishonest. Right now the numbers look bad in both Norway, Denmark and Germany this is why there is already several specialists that are alarmed independently in NO/DE (see first sciencemag article). [1]https://www.ined.fr/fichier/rte/166/Page%20Data/Norway/NorwegianDocumentationCovid19-From-12-03-2021_To-18-03-2021.zip https://www.ined.fr/fichier/rte/166/Page%20Data/Norway/Norwe... [2]https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-daily-data-summary-deaths-05132020-1.pdf https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-d... [3]https://www.worldobesityday.org/assets/downloads/COVID-19-and-Obesity-The-2021-Atlas.pdf https://www.worldobesityday.org/assets/downloads/COVID-19-an... -- disclaimer, i am not against vaccines, and would gladly take the Pfizer vaccine at the moment at least. Also seems to have way less side effects after vaccination like fever/shaking/headache/vomiting. Everyone i know who's taken the AZ vaccine has been very sick for a few days (nurses/doctors), no side effects from the pfizer vaccine - anecdotally i know.