4 ms·

It seems to me that it should be possible to operate a public transit system profitably if you assume a steady state, meaning no need to expand. But when cities

by eandre 6y ago

It seems to me that it should be possible to operate a public transit system profitably if you assume a steady state, meaning no need to expand. But when cities grow, public transit systems must continually expand to continue to service the population which requires massive amounts of up-front capital, which each takes decades to pay back through rider fees.

m_mueller 6y ago
to provide some example to your point: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Transportation/Tokyo-Metro-tackles-87bn-global-market-with-IPO-in-mind https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Transportation/Tokyo-Metro-... "The company recorded a net profit of 61 billion yen ($560 million) for the year ended March, up 0.6% from the previous year thanks to external factors such as the increase in foreign visitors to the Japanese capital. It posted revenues of 435 billion yen." I don't think there's something fundamentally different about Tokyo compared to other dense metropoles like NYC or London. Low density cities like LA might be a different story.
- input_sh 6y ago
  > I don't think there's something fundamentally different about Tokyo compared to other dense metropoles like NYC or London. As others have pointed out, there is. It's about owning the land where you set up your stations. You don't make money on the tickets themselves, you make money by charging rent to companies in highly convenient locations. Some European cities do this on a smaller scale (like a shop or two right at the station), but nowhere near as much as they do in SE Asia.
  - m_mueller 6y ago
    I guess my point is, given that we know that this strategy works, why aren't more Western cities' transport companies/departments copying that model? Why not trying to buy up or lease property in strategic locations and converting them into malls integrated with a metro/train station? In Tokyo you often find nearby malls connected to the station by underground walkways - I'm sure there's also a business model to be had where a percentage of revenue goes to the transport provider if they connect stations in that way.
  - rob74 6y ago
    I haven't been to Tokyo yet, but in Munich you don't just have a shop or two, some of the more central stations (Stachus, Marienplatz, Hauptbahnhof, Sendlinger Tor) have small shopping centers in the mezzanine level. While renovating these during the last years, they have tried to optimize (i.e. increase) the surface usable for shops. But it's still pretty unfair if you think about it: having a subway system is a major plus for a city, so landlords get to collect more rent (generally, and even more if the building has a subway station nearby). So it's only natural to ask them to pay slightly higher taxes to help finance public transportation. But subway systems still have to justify why they are cross-financed using tax money...
    - csunbird 6y ago
      Same in Berlin as well, Hauptbahnhof, Ostkreuz, Ostbahnhof (e.g. important stations with lots of passengers) have shops inside them, but the others usually just have a place to get coffee or bagels only.
chrisandchris 6y ago
Within the city centre that might be true. But people also want public transport in rural regions and there it is just far way from profitable. But it‘s still necessary to provide IMHO.

by eandre 6y ago

m_mueller 6y ago

to provide some example to your point: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Transportation/Tokyo-Metro-tackles-87bn-global-market-with-IPO-in-mind https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Transportation/Tokyo-Metro-... "The company recorded a net profit of 61 billion yen ($560 million) for the year ended March, up 0.6% from the previous year thanks to external factors such as the increase in foreign visitors to the Japanese capital. It posted revenues of 435 billion yen." I don't think there's something fundamentally different about Tokyo compared to other dense metropoles like NYC or London. Low density cities like LA might be a different story.

input_sh 6y ago
> I don't think there's something fundamentally different about Tokyo compared to other dense metropoles like NYC or London. As others have pointed out, there is. It's about owning the land where you set up your stations. You don't make money on the tickets themselves, you make money by charging rent to companies in highly convenient locations. Some European cities do this on a smaller scale (like a shop or two right at the station), but nowhere near as much as they do in SE Asia.
- m_mueller 6y ago
  I guess my point is, given that we know that this strategy works, why aren't more Western cities' transport companies/departments copying that model? Why not trying to buy up or lease property in strategic locations and converting them into malls integrated with a metro/train station? In Tokyo you often find nearby malls connected to the station by underground walkways - I'm sure there's also a business model to be had where a percentage of revenue goes to the transport provider if they connect stations in that way.
- rob74 6y ago
  I haven't been to Tokyo yet, but in Munich you don't just have a shop or two, some of the more central stations (Stachus, Marienplatz, Hauptbahnhof, Sendlinger Tor) have small shopping centers in the mezzanine level. While renovating these during the last years, they have tried to optimize (i.e. increase) the surface usable for shops. But it's still pretty unfair if you think about it: having a subway system is a major plus for a city, so landlords get to collect more rent (generally, and even more if the building has a subway station nearby). So it's only natural to ask them to pay slightly higher taxes to help finance public transportation. But subway systems still have to justify why they are cross-financed using tax money...
  - csunbird 6y ago
    Same in Berlin as well, Hauptbahnhof, Ostkreuz, Ostbahnhof (e.g. important stations with lots of passengers) have shops inside them, but the others usually just have a place to get coffee or bagels only.

chrisandchris 6y ago

Within the city centre that might be true. But people also want public transport in rural regions and there it is just far way from profitable. But it‘s still necessary to provide IMHO.