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> That's not a bad point. But then it turns out that it's not really connected to the statements about Minsky, is it? The statements about Minsky are harmful.

by jolux 6y ago

> That's not a bad point. But then it turns out that it's not really connected to the statements about Minsky, is it? The statements about Minsky are harmful. What reason is there to be coming to somebody’s defense when they are credibly accused of something like that? Frankly I don’t want friends who would react like Stallman did if I were to be accused as seriously as Minsky has been. People who are going to do harm because they don’t understand power imbalances should not be leaders. Yes, we’re all bad at something, but if that’s the thing you’re bad at, it’s probably not the place for you in our society. On this I will be firm. It is incumbent on leaders to understand power and take the potential for abuse in situations of power differential seriously. They must be scrupulous. These comments would not be made by someone who is scrupulous about power imbalances.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
seba_dos1 6y ago
> What reason is there to be coming to somebody’s defense when they are credibly accused of something like that? Accused of what exactly? See, the whole point of Stallman's statements was to clarify what exactly Minsky was being accused of, no more no less. He didn't even doubt those accusations in any way. It's plainly written there in his e-mail. You're being dishonest.
- jolux 6y ago
  >Accused of what exactly? Accused of having sex with one of Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking victims. >See, the whole point of Stallman's statements was to clarify what exactly Minsky was being accused of, no more no less. It's quite plain what Stallman was responding to. Stallman himself even says he sees no reason to disbelieve it. Unfortunately, "I didn't know she was a 17-year-old sex trafficking victim when I raped her" is not much of a defense, to me, ethically. Stallman imagines a situation in which Minsky was duped into having sex with this person without knowing her situation or her age. Why does Minsky get the benefit of the doubt here? This is not a court of law, and he was not a stupid man, to say the least. He even organized an academic symposium on Little St. James with Epstein in 2011, after he was already registered as a sex offender.
  - seba_dos1 6y ago
    > is not much of a defense, to me, ethically So what? It's not a defense, obviously, but it's enough to ask not to use the word "assault" when talking about those accusations because it's clearly misleading. It makes you imagine different things when you hear it than what is actually being talked about. You don't even have to give Minsky any benefit of doubt to ask for that. Whether that changes the moral or ethical outcome is completely irrelevant (and of course, I don't think it does). We're talking about a person who refuses to use singular they because... it's grammatically ambiguous so he comes up with and consistently uses perse/per/pers instead[0]. Like, c'mon, showing up in that thread to argue about used words is the most on-brand thing he could do. [0] https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html
    - jolux 6y ago
      > It's not a defense, obviously, but it's enough to ask not to use the word "assault" when talking about those accusations because it's clearly misleading. Is it though? If the victim was coerced, and he’s complicit in causing a great deal of harm, why wouldn’t we call it assault? Not all sexual assault involves battery, and pretending that it does is silly. >Like, c'mon, showing up in that thread to argue about used words is the most on-brand thing he could do. I don’t think I ever argued this was atypical behavior for him. The fact that it’s expected is the part I find unacceptable.
      - seba_dos1 6y ago
        "To assault" means "to make a physical attack on". You can rape someone or deal harm otherwise without assaulting them. > The fact that it’s expected is the part I find unacceptable. Thanks for explicitly spelling this out then. This is a pretty standard way of thinking for many neurodivergents. You're just saying "people of your kind cannot be public figures, and if they are they have to be taken down".
        jolux 6y ago
        > "To assault" means "to make a physical attack on". You can rape someone without assaulting them. That’s not how sexual assault is defined though. Quoting Wikipedia: “Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.” Avoiding this, like Stallman did, is a way of playing with semantics to reduce the seriousness of an accusation. He may be doing this because he’s autistic and rigid. I’ve done similar in the past because I’m similarly rigid, but it absolutely comes from a place of defensiveness too. >This is a pretty standard way of thinking for many neurodivergents. You're just saying "people of your kind cannot be public figures, and if they are they have to be taken down". I’m autistic, dude. This shit makes no sense to me. Saying it’s a “standard way of thinking” is doing us a disservice. Public figures cannot express opinions like this about rape! Autistic men who don’t seem to understand consent like this, or think they have figured out an inconsistency in society’s rules around sex, freak me the hell out. I expect other autistic people to have a hard time complying with social rules, but the fact that the rules are difficult for us is not an excuse for not following them, particularly if you want to lead a diverse group of people. Stallman is certainly not the best the autistic community has to offer, and I really wish you would stop implying he is.
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
Based on what he was accused of? You want all of your friends to ditch you based on an accusation? Regardless of the Epstein thing, this is not a take that you have given much thought. I could accuse you right now of touching 5 year olds in the park, and by your own claim, you would want all of your friends to abandon you. Your whole rationale about power imbalances doesn’t even make sense in this context. He is writing unix tools, not running a daycare.

by jolux 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

seba_dos1 6y ago

> What reason is there to be coming to somebody’s defense when they are credibly accused of something like that? Accused of what exactly? See, the whole point of Stallman's statements was to clarify what exactly Minsky was being accused of, no more no less. He didn't even doubt those accusations in any way. It's plainly written there in his e-mail. You're being dishonest.

jolux 6y ago
>Accused of what exactly? Accused of having sex with one of Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking victims. >See, the whole point of Stallman's statements was to clarify what exactly Minsky was being accused of, no more no less. It's quite plain what Stallman was responding to. Stallman himself even says he sees no reason to disbelieve it. Unfortunately, "I didn't know she was a 17-year-old sex trafficking victim when I raped her" is not much of a defense, to me, ethically. Stallman imagines a situation in which Minsky was duped into having sex with this person without knowing her situation or her age. Why does Minsky get the benefit of the doubt here? This is not a court of law, and he was not a stupid man, to say the least. He even organized an academic symposium on Little St. James with Epstein in 2011, after he was already registered as a sex offender.
- seba_dos1 6y ago
  > is not much of a defense, to me, ethically So what? It's not a defense, obviously, but it's enough to ask not to use the word "assault" when talking about those accusations because it's clearly misleading. It makes you imagine different things when you hear it than what is actually being talked about. You don't even have to give Minsky any benefit of doubt to ask for that. Whether that changes the moral or ethical outcome is completely irrelevant (and of course, I don't think it does). We're talking about a person who refuses to use singular they because... it's grammatically ambiguous so he comes up with and consistently uses perse/per/pers instead[0]. Like, c'mon, showing up in that thread to argue about used words is the most on-brand thing he could do. [0] https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html
  - jolux 6y ago
    > It's not a defense, obviously, but it's enough to ask not to use the word "assault" when talking about those accusations because it's clearly misleading. Is it though? If the victim was coerced, and he’s complicit in causing a great deal of harm, why wouldn’t we call it assault? Not all sexual assault involves battery, and pretending that it does is silly. >Like, c'mon, showing up in that thread to argue about used words is the most on-brand thing he could do. I don’t think I ever argued this was atypical behavior for him. The fact that it’s expected is the part I find unacceptable.
    - seba_dos1 6y ago
      "To assault" means "to make a physical attack on". You can rape someone or deal harm otherwise without assaulting them. > The fact that it’s expected is the part I find unacceptable. Thanks for explicitly spelling this out then. This is a pretty standard way of thinking for many neurodivergents. You're just saying "people of your kind cannot be public figures, and if they are they have to be taken down".
      - jolux 6y ago
        > "To assault" means "to make a physical attack on". You can rape someone without assaulting them. That’s not how sexual assault is defined though. Quoting Wikipedia: “Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.” Avoiding this, like Stallman did, is a way of playing with semantics to reduce the seriousness of an accusation. He may be doing this because he’s autistic and rigid. I’ve done similar in the past because I’m similarly rigid, but it absolutely comes from a place of defensiveness too. >This is a pretty standard way of thinking for many neurodivergents. You're just saying "people of your kind cannot be public figures, and if they are they have to be taken down". I’m autistic, dude. This shit makes no sense to me. Saying it’s a “standard way of thinking” is doing us a disservice. Public figures cannot express opinions like this about rape! Autistic men who don’t seem to understand consent like this, or think they have figured out an inconsistency in society’s rules around sex, freak me the hell out. I expect other autistic people to have a hard time complying with social rules, but the fact that the rules are difficult for us is not an excuse for not following them, particularly if you want to lead a diverse group of people. Stallman is certainly not the best the autistic community has to offer, and I really wish you would stop implying he is.

lawnchair_larry 6y ago

Based on what he was accused of? You want all of your friends to ditch you based on an accusation? Regardless of the Epstein thing, this is not a take that you have given much thought. I could accuse you right now of touching 5 year olds in the park, and by your own claim, you would want all of your friends to abandon you. Your whole rationale about power imbalances doesn’t even make sense in this context. He is writing unix tools, not running a daycare.