5 ms·

I'm not confused. It's possible to do the right thing in the large and in the small at the same time. Using cross-cultural fluency to defend Richard Stallman,

by jdub 6y ago

I'm not confused. It's possible to do the right thing in the large and in the small at the same time. Using cross-cultural fluency to defend Richard Stallman, who doesn't care one iota about cross-cultural fluency, and constantly embarrasses people inside and outside his own culture, is weird.

mam2 6y ago
The person above you is just saying that outrage cuture is not always "right". Its not even about cultural differences
blagie 6y ago
You're completely confused. What constitutes the right thing is specific to culture. Culture a lot of components (nationality/ethnicity, professional culture, neurodiversity, etc.). You're imposing your value system on Richard. You're being called on it, and you're doubling down, which is exactly what you fault Richard for. Two posts in, you should know better. From within Richard's cultural frame, he's doing the right thing in both the large and the small. Making people feel uncomfortable, embarrassing people, and otherwise are perfectly valid tactics for achieving change in many cultures; just not the one you're from. The extreme emphasis on politeness is very Western (although many Confucian cultures have something similar in the concept of face). And although it might seem weird to you for me to be making arguments from cross-cultural fluency, Richard would be a hypocrite if he were making an argument from cross-cultural fluency, but he's not, and I'm not Richard. I've made the same argument to Americans acting inappropriately in all sorts of countries, even though in many of those cultures neither had (not, often, valued) cross-cultural fluency. I'm sorry, but you're being wrong in both the large and small things, just as much as an American in Iran or Japan expecting everyone to behave like them, and talking about how people are either jerks or overly generous when they behave differently, or when Americans talk aabout how cultures have bad attitudes towards children/women/education/civil rights/etc., or are just plain weird.
- jdub 6y ago
  I'm not sure why you're still harping on about culture, as if Richard hasn't misbehaved and offended people everywhere he's been. And don't conflate his personal behaviour with "tactics for achieving change".
  - blagie 6y ago
    Because you still don't understand, on an underlying level, what culture is, how people differ from each other, or how to accommodate that diversity. I'm trying to help you by at least pointing you in the right direction, but I'm close to giving up. It's Dunning-Kruger (which is not an insult and not uncommon in this domain) -- you're unaware of what you don't know. My experience is the international business community has generally done the best work here, since they needed to create organizations which work across cultures, and that's difficult if all employees take the type of myopic view you're taking. Good starting points include Hofstede, the Culture Shock series, Neurotribes, as well as Googling "[insert-country-name] business culture" (the country should NOT be Western or Southern Europe, which are too similar to the US). If you choose to go down that route, it will take a few years, but it will make you more successful in your career, and a better person in your personal life.
    - jdub 6y ago
      For pity's sake, none of this applies to Richard's behaviour you supercilious twat.
      - dang 6y ago
        We ban users that post like this, regardless of how wrong another comment is or you feel it is. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting to HN, we'd be grateful.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  Last I checked Mr. Stallman was working primarily in the western/American situation and isn't abiding by those standards by respecting other people's right to be female and not verbally abused, amongst other situations. So why is okay for him to abuse the "culture" which by the way will also get you fired from just about any place that I've worked or kicked out of any group I've worked in.
  - blagie 6y ago
    When did you last check? Last I checked, he lived on airplanes, giving talks around the world. If it makes you feel better, Richard is verbally hostile towards men too. The "verbal abuse" is equal opportunity. And all that said, a lot of immigrants get fired in the US for what's perceived to be inappropriate cultural behavior here. African Americans too, for that matter. Many communication styles are perceived as verbally abusive within US culture. That doesn't make it right.

by jdub 6y ago

mam2 6y ago

The person above you is just saying that outrage cuture is not always "right". Its not even about cultural differences

blagie 6y ago

You're completely confused. What constitutes the right thing is specific to culture. Culture a lot of components (nationality/ethnicity, professional culture, neurodiversity, etc.). You're imposing your value system on Richard. You're being called on it, and you're doubling down, which is exactly what you fault Richard for. Two posts in, you should know better. From within Richard's cultural frame, he's doing the right thing in both the large and the small. Making people feel uncomfortable, embarrassing people, and otherwise are perfectly valid tactics for achieving change in many cultures; just not the one you're from. The extreme emphasis on politeness is very Western (although many Confucian cultures have something similar in the concept of face). And although it might seem weird to you for me to be making arguments from cross-cultural fluency, Richard would be a hypocrite if he were making an argument from cross-cultural fluency, but he's not, and I'm not Richard. I've made the same argument to Americans acting inappropriately in all sorts of countries, even though in many of those cultures neither had (not, often, valued) cross-cultural fluency. I'm sorry, but you're being wrong in both the large and small things, just as much as an American in Iran or Japan expecting everyone to behave like them, and talking about how people are either jerks or overly generous when they behave differently, or when Americans talk aabout how cultures have bad attitudes towards children/women/education/civil rights/etc., or are just plain weird.

jdub 6y ago
I'm not sure why you're still harping on about culture, as if Richard hasn't misbehaved and offended people everywhere he's been. And don't conflate his personal behaviour with "tactics for achieving change".
- blagie 6y ago
  Because you still don't understand, on an underlying level, what culture is, how people differ from each other, or how to accommodate that diversity. I'm trying to help you by at least pointing you in the right direction, but I'm close to giving up. It's Dunning-Kruger (which is not an insult and not uncommon in this domain) -- you're unaware of what you don't know. My experience is the international business community has generally done the best work here, since they needed to create organizations which work across cultures, and that's difficult if all employees take the type of myopic view you're taking. Good starting points include Hofstede, the Culture Shock series, Neurotribes, as well as Googling "[insert-country-name] business culture" (the country should NOT be Western or Southern Europe, which are too similar to the US). If you choose to go down that route, it will take a few years, but it will make you more successful in your career, and a better person in your personal life.
  - jdub 6y ago
    For pity's sake, none of this applies to Richard's behaviour you supercilious twat.
    - dang 6y ago
      We ban users that post like this, regardless of how wrong another comment is or you feel it is. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting to HN, we'd be grateful.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
Last I checked Mr. Stallman was working primarily in the western/American situation and isn't abiding by those standards by respecting other people's right to be female and not verbally abused, amongst other situations. So why is okay for him to abuse the "culture" which by the way will also get you fired from just about any place that I've worked or kicked out of any group I've worked in.
- blagie 6y ago
  When did you last check? Last I checked, he lived on airplanes, giving talks around the world. If it makes you feel better, Richard is verbally hostile towards men too. The "verbal abuse" is equal opportunity. And all that said, a lot of immigrants get fired in the US for what's perceived to be inappropriate cultural behavior here. African Americans too, for that matter. Many communication styles are perceived as verbally abusive within US culture. That doesn't make it right.