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Imagine if this money was used to rehabilitate. Or to remove the conditions that lead to crime. Now you see what abolish prisons and police is.

BuyMyBitcoins 6y ago
> “Now you see what abolish prisons and police is”. I don’t want to live in a society that has abolished police and prisons. I don’t even know how people end up with this view - unless you want to shuffle around the definitions of “abolish”, “police”, and “prison”.
- novok 6y ago
  A lot of police work is not security work. That is the fundamental disconnect. People tend to want basic security protections. Do they really care if someone is secretly taking drugs if it doesn't lead to security threatening behaviors? Only a very small moralizing and authoritarian few.
StanislavPetrov 6y ago
Every reasonable person understands the need to reform the entire "justice system", from the police officer to the prosecutor's office to the legislature, but its not useful to ignore reality and pretend we live in a fantasy world where there aren't murderers, rapists and child molesters roaming around. A country of hundreds of millions of people is never going to be a utopian place without the need for laws, people who enforce the laws or places to put people who break the laws. Those who say we should abolish prisons and/or police either don't really mean "abolish", or aren't serious people with a grasp of objective reality. Those in the former category should drop the "abolish" rhetoric and say what they mean (whether that's reform, restructure, downsize). Those in the latter category are not mentally fit to be included in the debate.
- danielheath 6y ago
  What category is "What we have now manages to be even worse than just letting the murderers, rapists and child molesters run free"?
  - dodobirdlord 6y ago
    Seems to pretty clearly fall into “mentally fit to be included in the debate”.
hayst4ck 6y ago
At face value I agree, but any time the answer seems easy or obvious, its worth pondering complexities. The following questions are not meant to prove a point or be answered, the purpose is to showcase complexity: What if corrections costs are not due to malfeasance or inefficiency, but due to it being a jobs program for relatively unskilled labor? If we applied skilled labor to the problem, how would we deal with the displaced unskilled labor? What is the opportunity cost of training people for rehabilitating criminals rather than improving our professionals mental health/productivity or STEM training? Is the rehabilitation cost worth more than paying teachers more? It doesn't take long living in San Francisco to have your window bashed in or bike stolen. What would you do with those people? What would you do with unrepentant murderers and rapists? What would you do for people who derive social standing through violence? Clearly police and prison is useful to society. Clearly it would be ideal to turn criminals into tax paying, law abiding citizens. There is a cold blooded cost/benefit analysis that can be made. There is probably a rehabilitation cost that can be measured. If cost_of_rehabilitation > total_estimated_future_tax_revenues is it worth it? If we added several more factors to the equation, maybe good_will_cost, cost_of_incarceration, opportunity_cost, etc, I think everyone will agree there is a potential model that can be applied to the problem, even if it doesn't feel good to be so objective. I don't think we have a recipe for what rehabilitation looks like. Is it ethical to perform "rehabilitation" experiments on prisoners? What is the plan for training and the labor cost increase for skilled labor? What is the plan for creating a rehabilitation program? > Now you see what abolish prisons and police is. This phrase is meant to be provocative and energize a certain set of ideals (specifically being anti-authority). It doesn't appeal to moderates at all. The fact NPR and every other news source had to break it down for begrudging acceptance really hurts it's message. The message is justice for all, and if police are above the law, then there is no justice. If the color of your skin puts you at a higher chance of persecution, then there is no justice. If the culture someone grows up in is too poor or disadvantaged to meet basic needs for money or respect, and crime is the only or easiest way to fulfill them, then there is no justice. Our implementations of prison and police are poor. There is a very clear cultural problem. They need reform, not abolition. This phrase hinders reform because it's literal meaning is far from what it means when someone says it.
- jfengel 6y ago
throwawaysea 6y ago
The conditions? America has great conditions. The standard of living is high, life expectancy has gone up over time, we have numerous safety nets like SNAP, and our innovations have vastly improved quality of life for all income levels. The conditions are not good enough for those who are grossly irresponsible, or desire luxuries they can’t afford. That includes people wanting to live in expensive and desirable locations that don’t match their ability to generate income. But people aren’t entitled to every luxury they desire. I feel like this basic personal responsibility has been ignored in our recent political discourse. Because a substantial portion of crimes aren’t desperate attempts at survival, I’m not convinced that abolishing prisons or police will do anything except expose the rest of us to a chaotic and unsafe life. If we want to explore that direction we have to vote to fund small contained experiments that we can expand if they work, without jumping straight to defunding or abolishing services that keep us safe. As an aside - we may disagree about the effectiveness or level of safety nets, and that’s a fair conversation to hold on its own. However immigrants from humble beginnings regularly manage to make it here without resorting to criminality. I feel like it’s not the conditions at play, but other factors, such as individual choices and behaviors and culture.

BuyMyBitcoins 6y ago

> “Now you see what abolish prisons and police is”. I don’t want to live in a society that has abolished police and prisons. I don’t even know how people end up with this view - unless you want to shuffle around the definitions of “abolish”, “police”, and “prison”.

novok 6y ago
A lot of police work is not security work. That is the fundamental disconnect. People tend to want basic security protections. Do they really care if someone is secretly taking drugs if it doesn't lead to security threatening behaviors? Only a very small moralizing and authoritarian few.

StanislavPetrov 6y ago

Every reasonable person understands the need to reform the entire "justice system", from the police officer to the prosecutor's office to the legislature, but its not useful to ignore reality and pretend we live in a fantasy world where there aren't murderers, rapists and child molesters roaming around. A country of hundreds of millions of people is never going to be a utopian place without the need for laws, people who enforce the laws or places to put people who break the laws. Those who say we should abolish prisons and/or police either don't really mean "abolish", or aren't serious people with a grasp of objective reality. Those in the former category should drop the "abolish" rhetoric and say what they mean (whether that's reform, restructure, downsize). Those in the latter category are not mentally fit to be included in the debate.

danielheath 6y ago
What category is "What we have now manages to be even worse than just letting the murderers, rapists and child molesters run free"?
- dodobirdlord 6y ago
  Seems to pretty clearly fall into “mentally fit to be included in the debate”.

hayst4ck 6y ago

At face value I agree, but any time the answer seems easy or obvious, its worth pondering complexities. The following questions are not meant to prove a point or be answered, the purpose is to showcase complexity: What if corrections costs are not due to malfeasance or inefficiency, but due to it being a jobs program for relatively unskilled labor? If we applied skilled labor to the problem, how would we deal with the displaced unskilled labor? What is the opportunity cost of training people for rehabilitating criminals rather than improving our professionals mental health/productivity or STEM training? Is the rehabilitation cost worth more than paying teachers more? It doesn't take long living in San Francisco to have your window bashed in or bike stolen. What would you do with those people? What would you do with unrepentant murderers and rapists? What would you do for people who derive social standing through violence? Clearly police and prison is useful to society. Clearly it would be ideal to turn criminals into tax paying, law abiding citizens. There is a cold blooded cost/benefit analysis that can be made. There is probably a rehabilitation cost that can be measured. If cost_of_rehabilitation > total_estimated_future_tax_revenues is it worth it? If we added several more factors to the equation, maybe good_will_cost, cost_of_incarceration, opportunity_cost, etc, I think everyone will agree there is a potential model that can be applied to the problem, even if it doesn't feel good to be so objective. I don't think we have a recipe for what rehabilitation looks like. Is it ethical to perform "rehabilitation" experiments on prisoners? What is the plan for training and the labor cost increase for skilled labor? What is the plan for creating a rehabilitation program? > Now you see what abolish prisons and police is. This phrase is meant to be provocative and energize a certain set of ideals (specifically being anti-authority). It doesn't appeal to moderates at all. The fact NPR and every other news source had to break it down for begrudging acceptance really hurts it's message. The message is justice for all, and if police are above the law, then there is no justice. If the color of your skin puts you at a higher chance of persecution, then there is no justice. If the culture someone grows up in is too poor or disadvantaged to meet basic needs for money or respect, and crime is the only or easiest way to fulfill them, then there is no justice. Our implementations of prison and police are poor. There is a very clear cultural problem. They need reform, not abolition. This phrase hinders reform because it's literal meaning is far from what it means when someone says it.

jfengel 6y ago

throwawaysea 6y ago

The conditions? America has great conditions. The standard of living is high, life expectancy has gone up over time, we have numerous safety nets like SNAP, and our innovations have vastly improved quality of life for all income levels. The conditions are not good enough for those who are grossly irresponsible, or desire luxuries they can’t afford. That includes people wanting to live in expensive and desirable locations that don’t match their ability to generate income. But people aren’t entitled to every luxury they desire. I feel like this basic personal responsibility has been ignored in our recent political discourse. Because a substantial portion of crimes aren’t desperate attempts at survival, I’m not convinced that abolishing prisons or police will do anything except expose the rest of us to a chaotic and unsafe life. If we want to explore that direction we have to vote to fund small contained experiments that we can expand if they work, without jumping straight to defunding or abolishing services that keep us safe. As an aside - we may disagree about the effectiveness or level of safety nets, and that’s a fair conversation to hold on its own. However immigrants from humble beginnings regularly manage to make it here without resorting to criminality. I feel like it’s not the conditions at play, but other factors, such as individual choices and behaviors and culture.