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[edit: I got the context wrong, see children comments] The commented pedophilia was the allegated one of Marvin Minsky with a 17 yo girl, whose coercion (by Ep

[edit: I got the context wrong, see children comments] The commented pedophilia was the allegated one of Marvin Minsky with a 17 yo girl, whose coercion (by Epstein) into sexual acts was maybe (probably, in the words of RMS) not made clear to Minsky (nor the age). I precise, because 17 yo is a quite mature age for sexual activity (and more so for a girl than for a boy, because the sexual maturity of the body happens earlier), and the context of being presented by Epstein may make it not obvious that there was slavery. So, even if I do not condone, I can see where the position of RMS comes from.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> The commented pedophilia was the allegated one of Marvin Minsky with a 17 yo girl, No, it was a comment in response to a group of Dutch pedophiles forming a political party with the stated goal of first reducing the age of consent for sex to 12, and eventually eliminating it altogether. What Minsky was accused of is sex with someone post-pubescent but below the age of consent, which isn't an act indicative of pedophilia, so defending pedophilia to defend Minsky would be gratuitous in the same way that defending allowing the Voting Rights Act to expire by saying the practice of slavery in the US wasn't actually harmful to those enslaved would be.
- henearkr 6y ago
  Oh, thanks for pointing out. You're right, so the Minsky case does not belong to the controversy around RMS positions. I did not know of this Dutch group, and I think their purpose is wrong.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    I think he also specifically defended Minsky, IIRC, onn the grounds that it wasn't clear Minsky had any reason to suspect that it wasn't voluntary and that, given that, did nothing morally wrong (if you think sex with prepubescent children can be voluntary and if so not harmful, obviously it's unsurprising to think the same thing for post-pubescent near-adults); his defense of Minsky is still controversial (people don't generally think that the age of consent is a bad idea, especially when there is a also a wide gulf in ages between parties), but not as extreme as his separate defense of pedophilic sex generally.
- prepend 6y ago
  > someone post-pubescent but below the age of consent I think an adult having sexual acts with a minor is not good because of the power imbalance. At the time of the act, the age of consent in that jurisdiction was 16 [0], so the person was not below the age of consent. It has since been changed to 18. I’m not agreeing with having a low age of consent, but since that’s a legal term, I’m posting this just to help you correctly state since this whole episode seems to be fraught with the need for precision. [0] Minsky was in USVI, I believe, at the time was 16, now 18. Also oddly, the typical age of consent in the US is 16. https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/united-states https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/united-states
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    "Crossing state lines to have sexual relations invokes federal law. The federal age of consent is 18."[1] [1] https://www.cwsdefense.com/blog/2020/january/state-lines-and-the-age-of-consent/ https://www.cwsdefense.com/blog/2020/january/state-lines-and...
    - prepend 6y ago
      Again, I think any sex with a minor is unethical, regardless of law. But in this particulars of Minsky’s situation he didn’t cross state lines for purposes of sex, he crossed for other purposes. IANAL, but I think this would be important for determining if age of consent was violated. If there was some sign of intent that Minsky planned on traveling just to sex this person then I think the reference you provided applies. But if he went for genuine other purposes then it would not. Arguing for purposes of nerd accuracy (or whatever you call it) not based on any endorsement of circumventing age of consent laws or abusing individuals.
      - pseudalopex 6y ago
        I think you're reading too much into informal phrasing. And a reasonable person would suspect prostitution or coercion.
        6y ago
visitor1 6y ago
We don't even know how old Giuffre was when the alleged sexual encounter occurred --assuming it did occur. She was born August 9, 1983, in the deposition she doesn't remember the time.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> The commented pedophilia was the allegated one of Marvin Minsky with a 17 yo girl, No, it was a comment in response to a group of Dutch pedophiles forming a political party with the stated goal of first reducing the age of consent for sex to 12, and eventually eliminating it altogether. What Minsky was accused of is sex with someone post-pubescent but below the age of consent, which isn't an act indicative of pedophilia, so defending pedophilia to defend Minsky would be gratuitous in the same way that defending allowing the Voting Rights Act to expire by saying the practice of slavery in the US wasn't actually harmful to those enslaved would be.

henearkr 6y ago
Oh, thanks for pointing out. You're right, so the Minsky case does not belong to the controversy around RMS positions. I did not know of this Dutch group, and I think their purpose is wrong.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  I think he also specifically defended Minsky, IIRC, onn the grounds that it wasn't clear Minsky had any reason to suspect that it wasn't voluntary and that, given that, did nothing morally wrong (if you think sex with prepubescent children can be voluntary and if so not harmful, obviously it's unsurprising to think the same thing for post-pubescent near-adults); his defense of Minsky is still controversial (people don't generally think that the age of consent is a bad idea, especially when there is a also a wide gulf in ages between parties), but not as extreme as his separate defense of pedophilic sex generally.
prepend 6y ago
> someone post-pubescent but below the age of consent I think an adult having sexual acts with a minor is not good because of the power imbalance. At the time of the act, the age of consent in that jurisdiction was 16 [0], so the person was not below the age of consent. It has since been changed to 18. I’m not agreeing with having a low age of consent, but since that’s a legal term, I’m posting this just to help you correctly state since this whole episode seems to be fraught with the need for precision. [0] Minsky was in USVI, I believe, at the time was 16, now 18. Also oddly, the typical age of consent in the US is 16. https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/united-states https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/united-states
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  "Crossing state lines to have sexual relations invokes federal law. The federal age of consent is 18."[1] [1] https://www.cwsdefense.com/blog/2020/january/state-lines-and-the-age-of-consent/ https://www.cwsdefense.com/blog/2020/january/state-lines-and...
  - prepend 6y ago
    Again, I think any sex with a minor is unethical, regardless of law. But in this particulars of Minsky’s situation he didn’t cross state lines for purposes of sex, he crossed for other purposes. IANAL, but I think this would be important for determining if age of consent was violated. If there was some sign of intent that Minsky planned on traveling just to sex this person then I think the reference you provided applies. But if he went for genuine other purposes then it would not. Arguing for purposes of nerd accuracy (or whatever you call it) not based on any endorsement of circumventing age of consent laws or abusing individuals.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      I think you're reading too much into informal phrasing. And a reasonable person would suspect prostitution or coercion.
      - 6y ago

visitor1 6y ago

We don't even know how old Giuffre was when the alleged sexual encounter occurred --assuming it did occur. She was born August 9, 1983, in the deposition she doesn't remember the time.