3 ms·

We are already looking at it, in China. The communist party is probably the only force preventing capitalism there from devolving into a thinly veiled oligarchy

by effie 6y ago

We are already looking at it, in China. The communist party is probably the only force preventing capitalism there from devolving into a thinly veiled oligarchy with the problems you mention we have in the west and in Russia. They seem to be good at 1) long-term thinking, investing all around the world and building infrastructure 2) preventing people from moving out to big cities away from their birthplace 3) seem to be interested in addressing pollution externalities, building nuclear energy power plants fast. They are still a massive polluter, so they are not perfect, and the political system is probably not a western liberal ideal, but we can and should learn from them. The better capitalism will probably be less of capitalism and oligarchy, and more of a powerful social democracy state.

carmen_sandiego 6y ago
Cities are generally considered efficient and good. We want people to live in them. In traditional Neoliberal thought, anyway. Tons of people move to cities in China though. Shenzhen is basically dead when everyone goes home for CNY.
- effie 6y ago
  Who is "we"? Of course, many people want to move, work and live in the big cities. But it is not clear it is preferable to let all of them do that and leave the rest of the China depopulated. The hukou system seems designed to keep big proportion of all people from settling and living in the big cities. And it seems this is working. For example, agricultural hukous are motivated from changing to urban hukous by property rights that urban hukous do not have.
  - carmen_sandiego 6y ago
    > Who is "we"? Classic Neoliberals, as stated. Or, people who like evidence-based policy in general. Cities are more efficient in terms of output per resource input, environmental externalities, etc. China has some of the most populated cities in the world. Real estate prices are way beyond the average person's reach and it's only getting worse. People who migrate to cities for work are often slaving away with no end in sight, all just to send money back anyway. Heck, even 'skilled' labor is forced to do that because there's so much competition from the millions of others. Meanwhile the people who are left behind in the country struggle to get even a basic standard of living. How one earth is that 'working'? China's QoL increases are entirely about it becoming richer in general. 户口 is a nasty bit of central planning that messes with peoples lives and crushes them at random. It hasn't stopped overpopulation. It hasn't solved the other problems. It gives people advantages based on a dice roll of their birth, rather than merit, and then the rest of the Chinese system compounds it. Honestly, your comments are starry-eyed orientalism at its worst. Chinese 'capitalism' is a horror show.
    - effie 6y ago
      Yes the system is not meritocratic, some people have it much harder and can't do much about it. That sucks for the individual, but it "works" in the sense it is a hurdle/disincentive from the population overconcentrating at few big cities.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
giantg2 6y ago
"The communist party is probably the only force preventing capitalism there from devolving into a thinly veiled oligarchy..." China is even more of an oligarchy than the US in my opinion.
- effie 6y ago
  How so? The oligarchs in China seem to be under control of the state/party, not the other way around.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    The oligarchs are the party. You can see that the people in power have better living conditions, special privileges, etc. The "people" have no recourse to hold the leaders responsible.
    - effie 6y ago
      Yes there is a privileged class. But that is the case everywhere. And it is most probably very corrupt too. However, what the China system has and the western systems do not have, is the absolute power of the party to set the policy and execute it. This includes making the powerful people (oligarchs) obey, or removing them from power if needed. It breeds infighting and turnover which is good for finding the most capable people. This seems to be impossible in the west; the wealthy powerful people are not removable from their power, irrespective of who is in control of the government.
      - giantg2 6y ago
        That's only true to a point. In the west, people in power don't have (in theory) legal powers or privileges outside their office above the general public - you know "That all men are created equal...". Just because there is turnover doesn't mean that the most capable people are in power. It could be that the most deceitful or powerful people are in power. You can even see some of this in the worker union in China. It's basically a sham. It's run by the state and the safety protections are basically non-existent.

by effie 6y ago

carmen_sandiego 6y ago

Cities are generally considered efficient and good. We want people to live in them. In traditional Neoliberal thought, anyway. Tons of people move to cities in China though. Shenzhen is basically dead when everyone goes home for CNY.

effie 6y ago
Who is "we"? Of course, many people want to move, work and live in the big cities. But it is not clear it is preferable to let all of them do that and leave the rest of the China depopulated. The hukou system seems designed to keep big proportion of all people from settling and living in the big cities. And it seems this is working. For example, agricultural hukous are motivated from changing to urban hukous by property rights that urban hukous do not have.
- carmen_sandiego 6y ago
  > Who is "we"? Classic Neoliberals, as stated. Or, people who like evidence-based policy in general. Cities are more efficient in terms of output per resource input, environmental externalities, etc. China has some of the most populated cities in the world. Real estate prices are way beyond the average person's reach and it's only getting worse. People who migrate to cities for work are often slaving away with no end in sight, all just to send money back anyway. Heck, even 'skilled' labor is forced to do that because there's so much competition from the millions of others. Meanwhile the people who are left behind in the country struggle to get even a basic standard of living. How one earth is that 'working'? China's QoL increases are entirely about it becoming richer in general. 户口 is a nasty bit of central planning that messes with peoples lives and crushes them at random. It hasn't stopped overpopulation. It hasn't solved the other problems. It gives people advantages based on a dice roll of their birth, rather than merit, and then the rest of the Chinese system compounds it. Honestly, your comments are starry-eyed orientalism at its worst. Chinese 'capitalism' is a horror show.
  - effie 6y ago
    Yes the system is not meritocratic, some people have it much harder and can't do much about it. That sucks for the individual, but it "works" in the sense it is a hurdle/disincentive from the population overconcentrating at few big cities.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

giantg2 6y ago

"The communist party is probably the only force preventing capitalism there from devolving into a thinly veiled oligarchy..." China is even more of an oligarchy than the US in my opinion.

effie 6y ago
How so? The oligarchs in China seem to be under control of the state/party, not the other way around.
- giantg2 6y ago
  The oligarchs are the party. You can see that the people in power have better living conditions, special privileges, etc. The "people" have no recourse to hold the leaders responsible.
  - effie 6y ago
    Yes there is a privileged class. But that is the case everywhere. And it is most probably very corrupt too. However, what the China system has and the western systems do not have, is the absolute power of the party to set the policy and execute it. This includes making the powerful people (oligarchs) obey, or removing them from power if needed. It breeds infighting and turnover which is good for finding the most capable people. This seems to be impossible in the west; the wealthy powerful people are not removable from their power, irrespective of who is in control of the government.
    - giantg2 6y ago
      That's only true to a point. In the west, people in power don't have (in theory) legal powers or privileges outside their office above the general public - you know "That all men are created equal...". Just because there is turnover doesn't mean that the most capable people are in power. It could be that the most deceitful or powerful people are in power. You can even see some of this in the worker union in China. It's basically a sham. It's run by the state and the safety protections are basically non-existent.