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>Only a small portion of the article is about SW development. The article, is, however written by a software developer. >The fraction of Emacs users who use i

by jolux 6y ago

>Only a small portion of the article is about SW development. The article, is, however written by a software developer. >The fraction of Emacs users who use it primarily for things other than programming is a lot bigger than most HN readers think it is. Do we have any hard data here? Or is this just an anecdote? Sure, Emacs is usable for a lot of stuff outside programming. I personally use it for org-mode and as a general-purpose git client. That doesn't mean that the Emacs usability story could be better overall. Obviously I don't think Emacs should be as narrowly focused as VSCode. Greater usability would benefit users who don't program.

BeetleB 6y ago
> That doesn't mean that the Emacs usability story could be better overall. Obviously I don't think Emacs should be as narrowly focused as VSCode. Greater usability would benefit users who don't program. My comment had nothing to do with usability. I merely find the incessant comparisons with VSCode to be (mostly) noise. I'm not even here to advocate for Emacs (although I love it). People want better usability? Fine. But let's not let SW development be the benchmark for how good Emacs is. It's just one use for Emacs. > Do we have any hard data here? Or is this just an anecdote? Very much an anecdote. Thing is, so is any other perception. There is no hard data out there. Having said that, hang out on places like the Emacs subreddit and quite a lot of submissions are not related to SW development. Looking at it right now, only 3 submissions on the front page are related to coding/SW. If you follow the weekly Emacs news, you'll similarly find that the bulk of it is not related to coding/SW.
- slightwinder 6y ago
  > There is no hard data out there. MELPA has download-numbers. This is hard enouhg to give a rough impression on general package-usage. Looking at them, most people are doing software-work, markdown or enhance emacs itself. Even org-packages have only a rather low usage-number. Which could mean the alternative usages of emacs are all with pre-installed packages or from other sources. Quite possible that there are million org-users who are happy with the basic setup und don't need additional packages from MELPA.
  - BeetleB 6y ago
    > This is hard enouhg to give a rough impression on general package-usage. Not really, because it doesn't have all the numbers for built-in features. As you noted: A huge number of users use Emacs for org-mode, which is built in, and many don't feel the need to upgrade org mode often (I myself upgrade it once every year or two). Also, the sets overlap. Those who use, say, lsp-mode may also use mu4e. That lsp-mode may have more downloads doesn't mean a given user used it more. I myself use Emacs for SW development. Yet the bulk of my Emacs usage is not SW development. It's mail, tracking TODOs, writing notes, keeping track of things, etc.
pwrplus1 6y ago
>> The fraction of Emacs users who use it primarily for things other than programming is a lot bigger than most HN readers think it is. > Do we have any hard data here? https://emacssurvey.org/2020/ https://emacssurvey.org/2020/
- BeetleB 6y ago
  The data there is heavily biased as it was advertised and promoted in only a few select places (e.g. Reddit).
ywei3410 6y ago
> Do we have any hard data here? Or is this just an anecdote? 55% according to the Emacs survey 2020 (obviously, take it with a pinch of self-selection bias due to the survey being self selecting). [1] https://emacssurvey.org/2020/ https://emacssurvey.org/2020/
- jolux 6y ago
  And yet that same survey says 91% use it for software development, too.
  - BeetleB 6y ago
    Yet there is no hard data for my claim: > The fraction of Emacs users who use it primarily for things other than programming is a lot bigger than most HN readers think it is. I didn't claim most users don't use it for SW development. I didn't even claim most users don't use it primarily for SW development. I said the number of people who primarily use it for other stuff is larger than most people think. If HN thinks the number is 5%, and in reality it is 20%: The survey does not have data either way. And as I noted in another post: The survey is flawed in that it didn't contain a representative sample. In particular, people on the Emacs mailing list were quite opposed to filling out the survey, and one of their concerns was what is happening right here: People drawing conclusions from a very poorly executed survey.
    - jolux 6y ago
      I'm not drawing any conclusions about the community, you're the person who started making claims about the demographics of users. > In particular, people on the Emacs mailing list were quite opposed to filling out the survey, and one of their concerns was what is happening right here: People drawing conclusions from a very poorly executed survey. But the outcome here is that their point of view was not represented, flawed though the survey may be.
- oblio 6y ago
  You're completely misreading that graph, I think. And that graph actually proves his point. 91.4% of Emacs users use it for coding (so the overwhelming majority, as you'd expect), and then some of them use it for something else. Those groups are not separate, if you look at the percentages, they add up to a lot more than 100%. So people could check multiple options. All this tells us is that: A) Emacs is primarily used by devs (hardly surprising :-) ) B) The devs that use it also use it for other side tasks (also hardly surprising, considering Emacs' kitchen sink philosophy).

by jolux 6y ago

BeetleB 6y ago

> That doesn't mean that the Emacs usability story could be better overall. Obviously I don't think Emacs should be as narrowly focused as VSCode. Greater usability would benefit users who don't program. My comment had nothing to do with usability. I merely find the incessant comparisons with VSCode to be (mostly) noise. I'm not even here to advocate for Emacs (although I love it). People want better usability? Fine. But let's not let SW development be the benchmark for how good Emacs is. It's just one use for Emacs. > Do we have any hard data here? Or is this just an anecdote? Very much an anecdote. Thing is, so is any other perception. There is no hard data out there. Having said that, hang out on places like the Emacs subreddit and quite a lot of submissions are not related to SW development. Looking at it right now, only 3 submissions on the front page are related to coding/SW. If you follow the weekly Emacs news, you'll similarly find that the bulk of it is not related to coding/SW.

slightwinder 6y ago
> There is no hard data out there. MELPA has download-numbers. This is hard enouhg to give a rough impression on general package-usage. Looking at them, most people are doing software-work, markdown or enhance emacs itself. Even org-packages have only a rather low usage-number. Which could mean the alternative usages of emacs are all with pre-installed packages or from other sources. Quite possible that there are million org-users who are happy with the basic setup und don't need additional packages from MELPA.
- BeetleB 6y ago
  > This is hard enouhg to give a rough impression on general package-usage. Not really, because it doesn't have all the numbers for built-in features. As you noted: A huge number of users use Emacs for org-mode, which is built in, and many don't feel the need to upgrade org mode often (I myself upgrade it once every year or two). Also, the sets overlap. Those who use, say, lsp-mode may also use mu4e. That lsp-mode may have more downloads doesn't mean a given user used it more. I myself use Emacs for SW development. Yet the bulk of my Emacs usage is not SW development. It's mail, tracking TODOs, writing notes, keeping track of things, etc.

pwrplus1 6y ago

>> The fraction of Emacs users who use it primarily for things other than programming is a lot bigger than most HN readers think it is. > Do we have any hard data here? https://emacssurvey.org/2020/ https://emacssurvey.org/2020/

BeetleB 6y ago
The data there is heavily biased as it was advertised and promoted in only a few select places (e.g. Reddit).

ywei3410 6y ago

> Do we have any hard data here? Or is this just an anecdote? 55% according to the Emacs survey 2020 (obviously, take it with a pinch of self-selection bias due to the survey being self selecting). [1] https://emacssurvey.org/2020/ https://emacssurvey.org/2020/

jolux 6y ago
And yet that same survey says 91% use it for software development, too.
- BeetleB 6y ago
  Yet there is no hard data for my claim: > The fraction of Emacs users who use it primarily for things other than programming is a lot bigger than most HN readers think it is. I didn't claim most users don't use it for SW development. I didn't even claim most users don't use it primarily for SW development. I said the number of people who primarily use it for other stuff is larger than most people think. If HN thinks the number is 5%, and in reality it is 20%: The survey does not have data either way. And as I noted in another post: The survey is flawed in that it didn't contain a representative sample. In particular, people on the Emacs mailing list were quite opposed to filling out the survey, and one of their concerns was what is happening right here: People drawing conclusions from a very poorly executed survey.
  - jolux 6y ago
    I'm not drawing any conclusions about the community, you're the person who started making claims about the demographics of users. > In particular, people on the Emacs mailing list were quite opposed to filling out the survey, and one of their concerns was what is happening right here: People drawing conclusions from a very poorly executed survey. But the outcome here is that their point of view was not represented, flawed though the survey may be.
oblio 6y ago
You're completely misreading that graph, I think. And that graph actually proves his point. 91.4% of Emacs users use it for coding (so the overwhelming majority, as you'd expect), and then some of them use it for something else. Those groups are not separate, if you look at the percentages, they add up to a lot more than 100%. So people could check multiple options. All this tells us is that: A) Emacs is primarily used by devs (hardly surprising :-) ) B) The devs that use it also use it for other side tasks (also hardly surprising, considering Emacs' kitchen sink philosophy).