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Brazil agency fines Apple $2M for not including charger in iPhone 12 box
- k_sze 6y agoThat sounds really backwards, from an environmental point of view. I imagine that nowadays, anybody who can afford any smartphone already has access to some standard 5V USB power supply. In fact, for returning buyers of iPhone, I would even recommend making the Lightning cable optional.
- Larrikin 6y agoNot including a charger only becomes acceptable if outlets are mandated to have USB plugs by law. Otherwise it's an excuse for the company to save money while making me pay for a charger in the future if one of my old ones I got in the past breaks or is lost.
- TylerE 6y agoHaving as part of the law won't help. I work for a website that lists housing rentals. Lead paint is still a very big deal, with a lot of complexity, and that's been banned nationally since 1978.
- minitech 6y agoLead paint being banned by law helped immensely, so not sure about that example. Outlets are also a lot easier to replace than lead paint. … not that I think it’s a good idea to make USB outlets a legal requirement.
- TylerE 6y agoMy point is that something being legally mandated doesn’t actually mean it’ll be anything like universal basically ever.
- toomanybeersies 6y agoShould this law require USB-A or USB-C sockets? And does the outlet on the ceiling of my garage for the garage door opener need a USB socket?
- toast0 6y agoI think it's fine to not include a charger as long as it's clear it's not included, and you sell chargers where you sell the phones. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a phone that came without a charger or cable if it was the same connector as my current one. Brazil has pretty good mobile phone penetration, so most phones are replacing an existing one, and most existing phones have a charger. Apple is reducing waste and hiding a $10-$15 margin increase.
- strictnein 6y agoPart of the functionality with these new phones is improved charging capabilities. You can only get this if you get a new charger plus a USB-C to Lightning cable. The population of people who have both of those is pretty negligible.
- mike503 6y agoThey probably saved $20 million, if not more.
- deathanatos 6y agoI've started looking at fines in terms of "if we scaled this to a normal person, what was the fine?"; Apple's revenue in 2020 was $274.5B, so a $2M fine scaled to an income of $65k (approximately the US median) is 47.3 cents.
- missedthecue 6y agoYou should probably use after tax profit, rather than gross revenue
- deathanatos 6y agoI could, but I would then also use a different metric for the average person: $65k is similar to gross revenue in that regards (it is money a person receives but before deducting tax or any expenses incurred). I could also use something corresponding to after tax profit for a person, but the data would be harder to come by, and I suspect much closer to $0.
- luos 6y agoI just got my first iPhone, without a charger. Now I have a MacBook as well, which has my only charger having USB-C out (and the ports on the machine). I find it pretty funny that I have to use an older Apple device with only USB-C ports to charge a newer Apple Device with a port I only have one cable for and have no charger to plug that cable except the MacBook. By Apple's thinking only has these ports because that's the future but somehow they missed to put these on the iPhone.
- tumblewit 6y agoThe iPhones didn't see a price drop after charger removal since apple said it was for environmental reasons it should be obvious the price should have been reduced. same goes for earpods. can't believe no one directly asked apple this.
- Google234 6y agoYou think it should be illegal to raise prices?
- jamescontrol 6y ago“Hey, we usually give you this extra stuff, but now we removed it because we want to charge money for it instead, also the environment”
- Google234 6y agoYou don’t know if that’s true and Apple hasn’t hidden the fact that they removed it.
- toomanybeersies 6y agoIt's a new version of the iPhone, with a new price. It would be a different case if Apple stopped including the charger and earpods with the iPhone 11.
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- strictnein 6y agoIf Apple actually cared about the environment they would make a charging cable that wasn't so flimsy and would completely ditch Lightning so people could use more devices with the same cable. But both of those options would cut down on their profits, so instead we get this pseudo-environmentalism that could very well increase the overall environmental impact of these devices.
- Google234 6y agoThey are moving towards wireless charging which will solve that issue.
- laurent92 6y agoWireless loses 1/3 of the energy. It requires 47% more energy, and even more when misaligned. https://debugger.medium.com/wireless-charging-is-a-disaster-waiting-to-happen-48afdde70ed9 https://debugger.medium.com/wireless-charging-is-a-disaster-...
- _huayra_ 6y agoThe last time I had a wireless chargeable phone, the charger would get uncomfortably hot, which I assume degrades the battery as well. I understand wireless charging for my toothbrush (charging port = less waterproof), but it's such a "solution searching for a problem" for phones. Plugging in a cable just isn't that hard.
- stingraycharles 6y agoI have an Anker wireless charging station, have not experienced any excessive heat. I have it on my desk so that I continuously charge my phone during the day, but am still able to pick it up all the time. It’s pretty nice but I agree it’s a gimmick, not a necessary problem to solve.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> I understand wireless charging for my toothbrush (charging port = less waterproof), but it’s such a “solution searching for a problem” for phones. The one awesome use case for phones is where the phone itself is a wireless charger, so you can do phone-to-phone charging when someone has a well charged phone and someone else has one about to die, without additional gear.
- supernova87a 6y agoMaybe the Brazilian government should look into helping its citizens by reducing tariffs, protectionist policies, and other regulations that make it one of the worst and costly places to do business and be a consumer. Rather than trumpeting a symbol of a $10 charging cable on a phone that's out of reach for 99.99% of Brazilians, using regulations that sound rather dubiously defined and enforced, I have to say. -- From Brazil Cost to Brazil Profit: Why are electronics so expensive in Brazil? https://thenextweb.com/la/2012/09/30/from-brazil-cost-brazil-profit-why-electronics-expensive-brazil/ https://thenextweb.com/la/2012/09/30/from-brazil-cost-brazil... -- Brazil is among the world's most expensive countries to buy an iPhone https://www.zdnet.com/article/brazil-is-among-the-worlds-most-expensive-countries-to-buy-an-iphone/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/brazil-is-among-the-worlds-mos... -- Brazil - Country Commercial Guide ("... Brazil ranked 141 out of 141 economies for burden of regulation...") https://www.trade.gov/knowledge-product/brazil-trade-barriers https://www.trade.gov/knowledge-product/brazil-trade-barrier... -- Trade Restrictions in Brazil: Who Pays the Price? https://www.e-jei.org/upload/JEI_32_2_283_323_2013600128.pdf https://www.e-jei.org/upload/JEI_32_2_283_323_2013600128.pdf I don't know if any others here have Brazilian friends, but every time I talk to mine, they offer to pay me to send them consumer goods at normal prices, or bring them when I visit. That is not a good sign. Well, that and the desperate poverty and financial situation that much of the country lives in. Unless you managed to marry someone on a military pension before he/she died (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/21/world/americas/brazil-pension-crisis-mounts-as-more-retire-earlier-then-pass-benefits-on.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/21/world/americas/brazil-pen...). But I digress.
- rktdno 6y agoAbsolutely. Regardless of one’s sentiment on Apple removing the charger this should be a focus of the discussion.
- pelasaco 6y agoi disagree. One can certainly add one related link to HN and we can discuss about it there. This thread however is to talk about the OP linked article. I'm not in Brazil, but i can imagine that as anywhere in the world, there is no such thing as "The" government, but different agencies, ministries each one with their own duties/responsibilities.
- jk563 6y agoPersonally I'm glad that companies are starting to not ship new cables with phones and would like to see it extended to other rechargables. I've thrown out so many micro-USB cables over the last few years and I still have them all over the place.
- pioneer9k 6y agoYeah not gonna lie, i definitely have had plenty of left over charging cables, bricks, and wires over the years, and i don't even upgrade every year. I'm using the same charging set up i used for like the last 2 years on my X when i got my 12 pro. 5w brick, charged over night. New battery lasts me all day even with heavy use. I can see why it's inconvenient for people who are just getting into iPhones though. But now samsung is doing the same anyways, iirc.
- gnicholas 6y ago> I can see why it's inconvenient for people who are just getting into iPhones though. It would be nice if they offered you a free cable and small brick if you wanted one. Most people wouldn't actually take them up on the offer, but someone getting their first phone (or passing their old phone/charger to a family member) would actually want this.
- gorgoiler 6y agoCables and chargers feel wasteful, but eliminating them only has a psychological benefit. There is zero impact in real-terms. I have a few buckets of tech that I refuse (no pun intended) to throw out. I am a techy person. The total capacity of those buckets is under 3 cubic feet after I rationalised it down from a collection 10x that size built up over 20 years. Meanwhile my family produces 200 cubic feet of landfill a year and 200 cubic feet of recycling a year. My e-waste is at least three orders of magnitude smaller than my household waste.
- pelasaco 6y agoI don't believe that they produce less cables, but instead they sell it separately. I don't see how it impact positively the environment. If you are concerned about the environment, please don't throw cables out, instead donate them.
- ghosty-discord 6y agotranslation: Brazil is poor and begging Apple for 2 million dollars