4 ms·

The author is definitely right in saying that Emacs is an OS, because it runs "programs" that interact with a common datasource. The issue is that those "progra

by rakoo 6y ago

The author is definitely right in saying that Emacs is an OS, because it runs "programs" that interact with a common datasource. The issue is that those "programs" are not the ones of your baremetal host. The sequel that makes sense would be a text editor that allows host programs to be run seamlessly on the text. Once again the geniuses behind Plan 9 have shown how novel their system was by creating acme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP1xVpMPn8M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP1xVpMPn8M). It allows any program to interact with whatever is in the text, so it clearly is the 2D cli the author is looking for

michael-ax 6y ago
Its also a daemon that does a lot of work for me from the shell! I meta-click to capture xterm output, call dired, make it give me popup-windows to edit short scripts and long command lines, i query the feed-reader, get my backup-schedule, have it popup for debrief when new voice notes are downloaded, serve as an emergency window manager, capture into multiple bins while browsing, turn into a presentation tool, create pdf reports and write-ups, prompt me to check-in any leftovers at the end of the day, work seamlessly across my machines, provide menus to give access to files, clickable functions, org-summaries, fantastic spreadsheets .. oh wait, that's going beyond shell. so yes, it made my beard grey. big deal, i can shave. sure it not perfect, sure its infuriating, surely i'm insane for continually investing into my future while tweaking something to compound its benefits. but none of this makes emacs anything but a lisp machine -- so well loved and so close to the metal that it will be here after you and me. Call it a general purpose computing shell, not an OS, and please compare it to the living, not the dead!
- rakoo 6y ago
  Can you do all of those without emacs ? My point is that yes Emacs can do so many things, but 1) it's all accessible from Emacs only and 2) it uses Emacs-only components. This is fine if you live inside Emacs, but it doesn't really integrate with the rest of your system
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Emacs is your system. You can't integrate all that well in the other direction, because host OS platforms don't let software interop as well. Even the Unix family. The deep interop of course comes at the expense of security. There's no sandboxing or restrictions in Emacs world. One day somebody will release a piece of elisp malware, and a lot of people - myself included - will lose their crown jewels. But until then, we get to enjoy the only remaining relatively mainstream OS with deep interoperability.
    - rakoo 6y ago
      Actually you can interop in the Unix family, that's what ACME is doing: write specific text to specific files and the content of your editor windows change. That allows the editor to implement any command you could find elsewhere, such as indent, put the contents of a directory, display compile errors...
      - TeMPOraL 6y ago
        I didn't realize that. I'll need to dig into ACME (and the history behind its ideas - I suspect there are many gems lost to time, like it is the case with Lisp machines). > write specific text to specific files Is that all plaintext, UNIX-style? Part of me wishes we could leave the era of unstructured text, and every tool carrying its own ad-hoc, bug-ridden, poorly specified parser and serialization logic - and send richly typed data structures (or objects) instead.
  - BeetleB 6y ago
    That's kind of like asking "Can you do all the cool things Linux provides without installing UNIX?"
pjmlp 6y ago
There is nothing genius about ACME. Just like Emacs is a poor imitation of the developer experience on Lisp Machines, ACME is a poor imitation of developer experience on Oberon and Mesa/Cedar.
- rakoo 6y ago
  How is it a poor imitation ? What is lacking ? (I've never used any of those predecessors)
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    On Oberon, Mesa/Cedar and Lisp Machines, the experience extends to the whole OS and any application, or REPL, not just a plain text editor. Althought I haven't mentioned, Smalltalk also provides a similar experience. Here are some videos that try to convey it, from my playlists, "Eric Bier Demonstrates Cedar" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_dt7NG38V4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_dt7NG38V4 "Emulating a Xerox Star (8010) Information System Running the Xerox Development Environment (XDE) 5.0" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP4hRUEIuxo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP4hRUEIuxo "SymbolicsTalk28June2012" "SYMBOLICS S-PACKAGES 3D GRAPHICS AND ANIMATION DEMO" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV5obrYaogU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV5obrYaogU "Symbolics Lisp Machine demo Jan 2013" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk The Native Oberon demos available at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw6NbzmjW-wLvqVbxOXj7Ug/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw6NbzmjW-wLvqVbxOXj7Ug/vid...

by rakoo 6y ago

michael-ax 6y ago

Its also a daemon that does a lot of work for me from the shell! I meta-click to capture xterm output, call dired, make it give me popup-windows to edit short scripts and long command lines, i query the feed-reader, get my backup-schedule, have it popup for debrief when new voice notes are downloaded, serve as an emergency window manager, capture into multiple bins while browsing, turn into a presentation tool, create pdf reports and write-ups, prompt me to check-in any leftovers at the end of the day, work seamlessly across my machines, provide menus to give access to files, clickable functions, org-summaries, fantastic spreadsheets .. oh wait, that's going beyond shell. so yes, it made my beard grey. big deal, i can shave. sure it not perfect, sure its infuriating, surely i'm insane for continually investing into my future while tweaking something to compound its benefits. but none of this makes emacs anything but a lisp machine -- so well loved and so close to the metal that it will be here after you and me. Call it a general purpose computing shell, not an OS, and please compare it to the living, not the dead!

rakoo 6y ago
Can you do all of those without emacs ? My point is that yes Emacs can do so many things, but 1) it's all accessible from Emacs only and 2) it uses Emacs-only components. This is fine if you live inside Emacs, but it doesn't really integrate with the rest of your system
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  Emacs is your system. You can't integrate all that well in the other direction, because host OS platforms don't let software interop as well. Even the Unix family. The deep interop of course comes at the expense of security. There's no sandboxing or restrictions in Emacs world. One day somebody will release a piece of elisp malware, and a lot of people - myself included - will lose their crown jewels. But until then, we get to enjoy the only remaining relatively mainstream OS with deep interoperability.
  - rakoo 6y ago
    Actually you can interop in the Unix family, that's what ACME is doing: write specific text to specific files and the content of your editor windows change. That allows the editor to implement any command you could find elsewhere, such as indent, put the contents of a directory, display compile errors...
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      I didn't realize that. I'll need to dig into ACME (and the history behind its ideas - I suspect there are many gems lost to time, like it is the case with Lisp machines). > write specific text to specific files Is that all plaintext, UNIX-style? Part of me wishes we could leave the era of unstructured text, and every tool carrying its own ad-hoc, bug-ridden, poorly specified parser and serialization logic - and send richly typed data structures (or objects) instead.
- BeetleB 6y ago
  That's kind of like asking "Can you do all the cool things Linux provides without installing UNIX?"

pjmlp 6y ago

There is nothing genius about ACME. Just like Emacs is a poor imitation of the developer experience on Lisp Machines, ACME is a poor imitation of developer experience on Oberon and Mesa/Cedar.

rakoo 6y ago
How is it a poor imitation ? What is lacking ? (I've never used any of those predecessors)
- pjmlp 6y ago
  On Oberon, Mesa/Cedar and Lisp Machines, the experience extends to the whole OS and any application, or REPL, not just a plain text editor. Althought I haven't mentioned, Smalltalk also provides a similar experience. Here are some videos that try to convey it, from my playlists, "Eric Bier Demonstrates Cedar" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_dt7NG38V4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_dt7NG38V4 "Emulating a Xerox Star (8010) Information System Running the Xerox Development Environment (XDE) 5.0" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP4hRUEIuxo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP4hRUEIuxo "SymbolicsTalk28June2012" "SYMBOLICS S-PACKAGES 3D GRAPHICS AND ANIMATION DEMO" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV5obrYaogU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV5obrYaogU "Symbolics Lisp Machine demo Jan 2013" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk The Native Oberon demos available at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw6NbzmjW-wLvqVbxOXj7Ug/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw6NbzmjW-wLvqVbxOXj7Ug/vid...