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Not everything humans do is based on a need. We are somewhat random as well and have wants that aren’t backed by anything more than the want itself. The essenti

Not everything humans do is based on a need. We are somewhat random as well and have wants that aren’t backed by anything more than the want itself. The essentialism above reminds me of Robert California’s “all life is sex” motto.

cmrx64 6y ago
wants are wants because we imagine having the want fulfilled will ___________. what's your take on the blank?
- ironmagma 6y ago
  Release dopamine. That’s not a need any more than buying a nice car is a need. It’s a want, and there is a difference. Needs are things required to survive; not buying a nice car will not kill you or anything like it.
  - kwdc 6y ago
    A bit more exploration on this: Example: If I don't have transport then I can't buy food / do things to survive. Its 50km to the nearest shop. Etc etc Thoughts: I need transport but want a car, horse or bicycle. Perhaps I do need that car after all? A horse isn’t as useful when it rains. The bicycle won't fit four people. Perhaps I do need a car. Obvious requirements just appeared involving weather, number of people, moving capacity etc. But do I need the fancy car or will a less fancy car fulfill the requirements? There's the need vs want line as I see it.
  - cmrx64 6y ago
    psychologically i’m not convinced the wetware differentiates them. dopamine is a mechanism for motivating behavior, to increase survival outcomes. when it comes to empathy (understanding others) this is what’s key. status symbols are socially real and the social realm is just as much a threat as anything else in the environment. more, maybe!
    - ironmagma 6y ago
      Yes, and that’s part of the problem. The distinction happens in the psyche — do you need to burglarize that car, or do you want to? Do you need to make moves on that attractive coworker (which would constitute harassment), or do you want to? The instinct does not know, the prefrontal cortex does. We can’t allow ourselves to empathize with anything that just pays attention to the raw impulses, because that will send us back to the jungle.
kayodelycaon 6y ago
The “need” thing is weird because it’s a rather vague term. It would be better to say every conversation has some kind of purpose. The purpose could be as simple as wanting to have a conversation. The purpose determines how you approach the conversation. Before anyone throws up their hands about overthinking things, that’s the point. It’s taking what’s an implicit, emotional process and making it an explicit, logical one. Over time, this way of thinking becomes automatic, turning it into an implicit, emotional process. Think of nonviolent communication as retraining your social skills. The same as any martial art, you have to unlearn what you think you know and start with the basics. For myself, I learned all of my social skills this way. I lack the emotional machinery required to learn social skills the implicit way. I’m constantly updating my rules to adjust for people I can’t predict.
- ironmagma 6y ago
  > I’m constantly updating my rules to adjust for people I can’t predict. But that is the implicit way. Everyone builds their psyche in response to the stimuli they encounter. There is value in building a system for yourself, but there is also danger in believing that the system is itself an answer. Build the system for yourself in the wrong way and you can end up with a severe psychosis. I think it’s better if we acknowledge that everyone is responsible for each other instead of peddling these self help ideas like “nonviolent communication” which are ultimately about selling books.
alexashka 6y ago
You're using your definition of 'need' to point out that it doesn't fit into what the parent has said. You're right, your definition doesn't fit, his definition fits perfectly. Words have multiple meanings.
- ironmagma 6y ago
  Well if you instead define a need as a want, then of course it makes sense, but that is because it’s tautological. “People do things because they want to do them.” That’s hardly an insight.
  - alexashka 6y ago
    Indeed, in non-violent communication, a need and a want are more or less interchangeable. The parent did an arguably poor job of expressing why non-violent communication is interesting. It's value prop is in learning to think in terms of people expressing their needs/wants and recognizing 'you don't listen to me' as a complaint about a need/want not being met, not an attack or statement regarding your character. The author of this thread has internalized being 'low in empathy', while non-violent communication would reject such labels as unhelpful and inaccurate, instead focusing on seeing if the wants/needs of a relationship can be improved and met through effective communication regarding what is actually desired, instead of blaming and attacking one another.

cmrx64 6y ago

wants are wants because we imagine having the want fulfilled will ___________. what's your take on the blank?

ironmagma 6y ago
Release dopamine. That’s not a need any more than buying a nice car is a need. It’s a want, and there is a difference. Needs are things required to survive; not buying a nice car will not kill you or anything like it.
- kwdc 6y ago
  A bit more exploration on this: Example: If I don't have transport then I can't buy food / do things to survive. Its 50km to the nearest shop. Etc etc Thoughts: I need transport but want a car, horse or bicycle. Perhaps I do need that car after all? A horse isn’t as useful when it rains. The bicycle won't fit four people. Perhaps I do need a car. Obvious requirements just appeared involving weather, number of people, moving capacity etc. But do I need the fancy car or will a less fancy car fulfill the requirements? There's the need vs want line as I see it.
- cmrx64 6y ago
  psychologically i’m not convinced the wetware differentiates them. dopamine is a mechanism for motivating behavior, to increase survival outcomes. when it comes to empathy (understanding others) this is what’s key. status symbols are socially real and the social realm is just as much a threat as anything else in the environment. more, maybe!
  - ironmagma 6y ago
    Yes, and that’s part of the problem. The distinction happens in the psyche — do you need to burglarize that car, or do you want to? Do you need to make moves on that attractive coworker (which would constitute harassment), or do you want to? The instinct does not know, the prefrontal cortex does. We can’t allow ourselves to empathize with anything that just pays attention to the raw impulses, because that will send us back to the jungle.

kayodelycaon 6y ago

The “need” thing is weird because it’s a rather vague term. It would be better to say every conversation has some kind of purpose. The purpose could be as simple as wanting to have a conversation. The purpose determines how you approach the conversation. Before anyone throws up their hands about overthinking things, that’s the point. It’s taking what’s an implicit, emotional process and making it an explicit, logical one. Over time, this way of thinking becomes automatic, turning it into an implicit, emotional process. Think of nonviolent communication as retraining your social skills. The same as any martial art, you have to unlearn what you think you know and start with the basics. For myself, I learned all of my social skills this way. I lack the emotional machinery required to learn social skills the implicit way. I’m constantly updating my rules to adjust for people I can’t predict.

ironmagma 6y ago
> I’m constantly updating my rules to adjust for people I can’t predict. But that is the implicit way. Everyone builds their psyche in response to the stimuli they encounter. There is value in building a system for yourself, but there is also danger in believing that the system is itself an answer. Build the system for yourself in the wrong way and you can end up with a severe psychosis. I think it’s better if we acknowledge that everyone is responsible for each other instead of peddling these self help ideas like “nonviolent communication” which are ultimately about selling books.

alexashka 6y ago

You're using your definition of 'need' to point out that it doesn't fit into what the parent has said. You're right, your definition doesn't fit, his definition fits perfectly. Words have multiple meanings.

ironmagma 6y ago
Well if you instead define a need as a want, then of course it makes sense, but that is because it’s tautological. “People do things because they want to do them.” That’s hardly an insight.
- alexashka 6y ago
  Indeed, in non-violent communication, a need and a want are more or less interchangeable. The parent did an arguably poor job of expressing why non-violent communication is interesting. It's value prop is in learning to think in terms of people expressing their needs/wants and recognizing 'you don't listen to me' as a complaint about a need/want not being met, not an attack or statement regarding your character. The author of this thread has internalized being 'low in empathy', while non-violent communication would reject such labels as unhelpful and inaccurate, instead focusing on seeing if the wants/needs of a relationship can be improved and met through effective communication regarding what is actually desired, instead of blaming and attacking one another.