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Use the nonviolent communication model: - recognize that anything we do is a strategy to meet one or more universal basic human needs which we do not control (

Use the nonviolent communication model: - recognize that anything we do is a strategy to meet one or more universal basic human needs which we do not control (e.g. safety, to matter, contribution, respect, play, sexual expression etc.) - recognize that how we do things depends on our experience and conditioning. Many of the strategies we have are suboptimal, or harmful, or meet some needs at the expense of others - acknowledge that we don’t control our condition, and neither do others. Genetic makeup, rest level, conditioning, life experience, trauma, attention level, mind chatter, current thoughts, blood sugar etc. all influence our reactions and our reactions come out of all of these. Free will is a myth - we don’t control our preferences. - feelings are useful indicators of basic needs being met or not. - learn to look for needs and the feelings present in the people around you. Start observing them in yourself. - learn to weave in the needs and feelings when you communicate. NVC language is clunky, the way I teach it is to weave in the essence but stay closer to less formal language.

ironmagma 6y ago
Not everything humans do is based on a need. We are somewhat random as well and have wants that aren’t backed by anything more than the want itself. The essentialism above reminds me of Robert California’s “all life is sex” motto.
- cmrx64 6y ago
  wants are wants because we imagine having the want fulfilled will ___________. what's your take on the blank?
  - ironmagma 6y ago
    Release dopamine. That’s not a need any more than buying a nice car is a need. It’s a want, and there is a difference. Needs are things required to survive; not buying a nice car will not kill you or anything like it.
    - kwdc 6y ago
      A bit more exploration on this: Example: If I don't have transport then I can't buy food / do things to survive. Its 50km to the nearest shop. Etc etc Thoughts: I need transport but want a car, horse or bicycle. Perhaps I do need that car after all? A horse isn’t as useful when it rains. The bicycle won't fit four people. Perhaps I do need a car. Obvious requirements just appeared involving weather, number of people, moving capacity etc. But do I need the fancy car or will a less fancy car fulfill the requirements? There's the need vs want line as I see it.
    - cmrx64 6y ago
      psychologically i’m not convinced the wetware differentiates them. dopamine is a mechanism for motivating behavior, to increase survival outcomes. when it comes to empathy (understanding others) this is what’s key. status symbols are socially real and the social realm is just as much a threat as anything else in the environment. more, maybe!
      - ironmagma 6y ago
        Yes, and that’s part of the problem. The distinction happens in the psyche — do you need to burglarize that car, or do you want to? Do you need to make moves on that attractive coworker (which would constitute harassment), or do you want to? The instinct does not know, the prefrontal cortex does. We can’t allow ourselves to empathize with anything that just pays attention to the raw impulses, because that will send us back to the jungle.
- kayodelycaon 6y ago
  The “need” thing is weird because it’s a rather vague term. It would be better to say every conversation has some kind of purpose. The purpose could be as simple as wanting to have a conversation. The purpose determines how you approach the conversation. Before anyone throws up their hands about overthinking things, that’s the point. It’s taking what’s an implicit, emotional process and making it an explicit, logical one. Over time, this way of thinking becomes automatic, turning it into an implicit, emotional process. Think of nonviolent communication as retraining your social skills. The same as any martial art, you have to unlearn what you think you know and start with the basics. For myself, I learned all of my social skills this way. I lack the emotional machinery required to learn social skills the implicit way. I’m constantly updating my rules to adjust for people I can’t predict.
  - ironmagma 6y ago
    > I’m constantly updating my rules to adjust for people I can’t predict. But that is the implicit way. Everyone builds their psyche in response to the stimuli they encounter. There is value in building a system for yourself, but there is also danger in believing that the system is itself an answer. Build the system for yourself in the wrong way and you can end up with a severe psychosis. I think it’s better if we acknowledge that everyone is responsible for each other instead of peddling these self help ideas like “nonviolent communication” which are ultimately about selling books.
- alexashka 6y ago
  You're using your definition of 'need' to point out that it doesn't fit into what the parent has said. You're right, your definition doesn't fit, his definition fits perfectly. Words have multiple meanings.
  - ironmagma 6y ago
    Well if you instead define a need as a want, then of course it makes sense, but that is because it’s tautological. “People do things because they want to do them.” That’s hardly an insight.
    - alexashka 6y ago
      Indeed, in non-violent communication, a need and a want are more or less interchangeable. The parent did an arguably poor job of expressing why non-violent communication is interesting. It's value prop is in learning to think in terms of people expressing their needs/wants and recognizing 'you don't listen to me' as a complaint about a need/want not being met, not an attack or statement regarding your character. The author of this thread has internalized being 'low in empathy', while non-violent communication would reject such labels as unhelpful and inaccurate, instead focusing on seeing if the wants/needs of a relationship can be improved and met through effective communication regarding what is actually desired, instead of blaming and attacking one another.
Pamar 6y ago
Are you familiar with the works of Paul Watzlawick? Especially https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/89200.Pragmatics_of_Human_Communication https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/89200.Pragmatics_of_Huma... ? I am asking because your first statement does not seem to adequately explain all the factors which are in play when we communicate.
andrei_says_ 6y ago
A few more points because I’m seeing some confusion in the comments. I’m speaking of Nonviolent communication the framework. It defines “needs”, “feelings”, “actions/strategies” as more concrete than the fuzzier definition each of us has intuitively. Here’s the inventory of needs for example: https://www.cnvc.org/training/resource/needs-inventory https://www.cnvc.org/training/resource/needs-inventory And a need does not involve a specific person taking a specific action. As in, I can meet my need for play/playfulness by sharing a joke, playing chess online, playing ultimate werewolf with friends etc. one need many strategies. Also, “empathy” is a process which takes place that the person you hope to give empathy to feels felt by you. This could be the result of a simple nod, or may need you to reflect their current needs and feelings so they know you have insight in their emotional world and into what’s really important. It’s a framework focusing attention and exchange on what is universally similar between us and creates harmony and resonance. Also, it gives up control. You cannot use it to influence behavior. The “power” of non-violence is connection.

ironmagma 6y ago

Not everything humans do is based on a need. We are somewhat random as well and have wants that aren’t backed by anything more than the want itself. The essentialism above reminds me of Robert California’s “all life is sex” motto.

cmrx64 6y ago
wants are wants because we imagine having the want fulfilled will ___________. what's your take on the blank?
- ironmagma 6y ago
  Release dopamine. That’s not a need any more than buying a nice car is a need. It’s a want, and there is a difference. Needs are things required to survive; not buying a nice car will not kill you or anything like it.
  - kwdc 6y ago
    A bit more exploration on this: Example: If I don't have transport then I can't buy food / do things to survive. Its 50km to the nearest shop. Etc etc Thoughts: I need transport but want a car, horse or bicycle. Perhaps I do need that car after all? A horse isn’t as useful when it rains. The bicycle won't fit four people. Perhaps I do need a car. Obvious requirements just appeared involving weather, number of people, moving capacity etc. But do I need the fancy car or will a less fancy car fulfill the requirements? There's the need vs want line as I see it.
  - cmrx64 6y ago
    psychologically i’m not convinced the wetware differentiates them. dopamine is a mechanism for motivating behavior, to increase survival outcomes. when it comes to empathy (understanding others) this is what’s key. status symbols are socially real and the social realm is just as much a threat as anything else in the environment. more, maybe!
    - ironmagma 6y ago
      Yes, and that’s part of the problem. The distinction happens in the psyche — do you need to burglarize that car, or do you want to? Do you need to make moves on that attractive coworker (which would constitute harassment), or do you want to? The instinct does not know, the prefrontal cortex does. We can’t allow ourselves to empathize with anything that just pays attention to the raw impulses, because that will send us back to the jungle.
kayodelycaon 6y ago
The “need” thing is weird because it’s a rather vague term. It would be better to say every conversation has some kind of purpose. The purpose could be as simple as wanting to have a conversation. The purpose determines how you approach the conversation. Before anyone throws up their hands about overthinking things, that’s the point. It’s taking what’s an implicit, emotional process and making it an explicit, logical one. Over time, this way of thinking becomes automatic, turning it into an implicit, emotional process. Think of nonviolent communication as retraining your social skills. The same as any martial art, you have to unlearn what you think you know and start with the basics. For myself, I learned all of my social skills this way. I lack the emotional machinery required to learn social skills the implicit way. I’m constantly updating my rules to adjust for people I can’t predict.
- ironmagma 6y ago
  > I’m constantly updating my rules to adjust for people I can’t predict. But that is the implicit way. Everyone builds their psyche in response to the stimuli they encounter. There is value in building a system for yourself, but there is also danger in believing that the system is itself an answer. Build the system for yourself in the wrong way and you can end up with a severe psychosis. I think it’s better if we acknowledge that everyone is responsible for each other instead of peddling these self help ideas like “nonviolent communication” which are ultimately about selling books.
alexashka 6y ago
You're using your definition of 'need' to point out that it doesn't fit into what the parent has said. You're right, your definition doesn't fit, his definition fits perfectly. Words have multiple meanings.
- ironmagma 6y ago
  Well if you instead define a need as a want, then of course it makes sense, but that is because it’s tautological. “People do things because they want to do them.” That’s hardly an insight.
  - alexashka 6y ago
    Indeed, in non-violent communication, a need and a want are more or less interchangeable. The parent did an arguably poor job of expressing why non-violent communication is interesting. It's value prop is in learning to think in terms of people expressing their needs/wants and recognizing 'you don't listen to me' as a complaint about a need/want not being met, not an attack or statement regarding your character. The author of this thread has internalized being 'low in empathy', while non-violent communication would reject such labels as unhelpful and inaccurate, instead focusing on seeing if the wants/needs of a relationship can be improved and met through effective communication regarding what is actually desired, instead of blaming and attacking one another.

Pamar 6y ago

Are you familiar with the works of Paul Watzlawick? Especially https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/89200.Pragmatics_of_Human_Communication https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/89200.Pragmatics_of_Huma... ? I am asking because your first statement does not seem to adequately explain all the factors which are in play when we communicate.

andrei_says_ 6y ago

A few more points because I’m seeing some confusion in the comments. I’m speaking of Nonviolent communication the framework. It defines “needs”, “feelings”, “actions/strategies” as more concrete than the fuzzier definition each of us has intuitively. Here’s the inventory of needs for example: https://www.cnvc.org/training/resource/needs-inventory https://www.cnvc.org/training/resource/needs-inventory And a need does not involve a specific person taking a specific action. As in, I can meet my need for play/playfulness by sharing a joke, playing chess online, playing ultimate werewolf with friends etc. one need many strategies. Also, “empathy” is a process which takes place that the person you hope to give empathy to feels felt by you. This could be the result of a simple nod, or may need you to reflect their current needs and feelings so they know you have insight in their emotional world and into what’s really important. It’s a framework focusing attention and exchange on what is universally similar between us and creates harmony and resonance. Also, it gives up control. You cannot use it to influence behavior. The “power” of non-violence is connection.